Social progress? Really? Where?

[SineSwiper]

What the hell have we done in the last 20 years that is monumental for the benefit of society? Since forever, I've had a growing list of social problems that bug the shit out of me, and since I've existed, nothing has been done about them. Here's what I can think of that would be a part of that list (in no real order):

• Getting rid of the electoral college and/or establishing a sane voting system
• Making speed limits that are actually correct to the average speed driven
• Abolishing consensual crime laws
• No? Okay, at least the legalization of drugs
• Fuck....Can't we at least legalize marijuana?!?
• Establish that an 18-year-old is not a minor, and should be able to buy a fucking beer like a real adult
• Fix the MPAA rating board and/or make it so that a naked boob isn't going to automatically make it NC-17
• Stop using oil, and start using alternative energy sources
• Stop fucking talking about abortion! It's been 30 years, so how long is the shelf life on a subject like this?
• Fix patent laws
• Fix copyright laws, or at least make sure that I can broadcast a 100-year-old Tugboat Willy without Disney suing me.
• Making the RIAA realize that $15 is entirely too much for a CD, and so is the online equivalent of $.99/song
• Make a majority of America realize that gays and lesbians are real people with real lifes
• Make a majority of America realize that agnostics/atheists are real people with real lifes
• Create affordable private schools that aren't religious
• Turn evolution into a "fact" instead of a "theory"
• More double-blind studies on psychics/mediums to scientifically prove that they aren't bullshitting
• Remove references to God in all government money and documents, so that we at least pretend to practice the separation of Church and State.
• Stop teaching abstinence, or at least promote condom use and safe sex primarily, since abstinence is so horribly unrealistic
• Rebalance the military so that the US isn't the only country in the world with a decent army/navy/air force.

That's quite a list, and all of it hasn't been fixed yet. Yeah, we've got the Internets now, and we're coming close on alternative energy. But, my list is only growing, and there isn't jack on the plus side. Where is the stuff that we fixed? What did we fix?

I'm not even asking for world peace or curing cancer or anything like that. Shit, why not cure cancer or AIDS? We've only had those two problems since fucking forever! Whatever happen to social evolution? During the 60's and 70's, we went to the moon, and we've abolished the last vestiges of slavery.

What have we been doing these past 20, nay, 30 years?

[Tessian]

Speed Limits, drinking age -- nobody follows either of these NOW. If a road is 55 people will go 65-75. If the speed limit was 65 then it'd be 75-80... it's the same way with drinking age. If legal was 18, then we'd have a huge rise in underage drinking of 15-17 year olds. Don't get me wrong, I think on paper they should be what you suggested...but in practice it'll cause far more problems than it solves. Fuck-- Speed Limit on the PA Turnpike is 65-- I used to consistently drive 90+ on it for weeks and never even SAW a cop unless there was an accident (stopped when I reailzed just how horrible my gas mileage was). Speed Limit signs are seen as guidelines, not limits, and we will always have underage drinkers, it's just that so far we haven't made it low enough that those who do aren't so fucking retarded and young that they'll kill themselves in droves.

Evolution-- I thought this WAS a fact and it being called a theory is just by intelligent design nutjobs (which if you've noticed have disappeared in the past year). OR, it's that scientifically it's near impossible to PROVE evolution to a satisfactory degree so it has to remain a theory... just like the theory that the universe is always expanding...kinda hard to prove it.

God & money-- seriously man, you're one of THOSE athiests? 1) I don't know if it can be a breach because it's not signifying a specific god/religion. If it mentioned Jesus or something you'd have a case. Separation of church and state was not written with athiests in mind and frankly I'm anti-religious and I don't give a shit about the money. It's not a big deal, calm down.

Copyrights/Patents -- Hahahahaha good luck with that. You're right, our copyright laws get rewritten and extended everytime it benefits a company...it's wrong, it's corrupt, but it ain't changing either.

Abstinence-- as far as I know for the most part only the church still follows this. Most schools I know teach safe birth control / condom usage or at least give you a pamphlet.

Military-- how the hell do you plan on this? Really it's a matter of the US has too much military and everyone else has too little. I don't get what you mean, you want the US to give part of its military to other countries? Too many countries RELY on the US's military might to protect them too.

Things you missed

while LGBT are still not totally accepted they have made huge ass strides in the past 20 years. Private schools-- do they not have charter schools where you are yet? They're basically a hybrid of public / private...where they get subsidized by taxes yet are still privately operated. Quite a few popping up around here these days.

HUGE amounts of corporation reforms thanks to Enron-- Corporations can still be quite corrupt, but at least it's a lot harder to lie about it. I don't know anything about the accounting side of things-- but from an Information Security side of things there are a shitload of new compliance guidelines companies have to get. I'm about to have a nervous breakdown trying to get my company PCI certified...let alone SAS70 and about a half dozen others.

We have broadband connectivity common in households-- information has become globalized and easily accessible for at least parts of the world.

[Julius Seeker]

I think there is a lot of confusion here on just what evolutionary theory is. It is called evolutionary theory because that is precisely what it is. The theory of evolution refers to the structure of ideas which interpret the factual information we have present. Theory and fact are two totally different things, a theory can never become a fact, and both facts and theories can be (and have been) proven wrong.

[Zeus]

Sine, when you find your Brave New World, send me the address and I'll become your neighbour

[Zeus]

I think there is a lot of confusion here on just what evolutionary theory is. It is called evolutionary theory because that is precisely what it is. The theory of evolution refers to the structure of ideas which interpret the factual information we have present. Theory and fact are two totally different things, a theory can never become a fact, and both facts and theories can be (and have been) proven wrong.

To lend further credence to Seek's explanation:

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

[Zeus]

HUGE amounts of corporation reforms thanks to Enron-- Corporations can still be quite corrupt, but at least it's a lot harder to lie about it. I don't know anything about the accounting side of things-- but from an Information Security side of things there are a shitload of new compliance guidelines companies have to get. I'm about to have a nervous breakdown trying to get my company PCI certified...let alone SAS70 and about a half dozen others.

Three words for ya: Sarbanes-Oxley Act. It truly is the spawn of the devil for accountants.

[SineSwiper]

Speed Limits, drinking age -- nobody follows either of these NOW. If a road is 55 people will go 65-75. If the speed limit was 65 then it'd be 75-80... it's the same way with drinking age. If legal was 18, then we'd have a huge rise in underage drinking of 15-17 year olds. Don't get me wrong, I think on paper they should be what you suggested...but in practice it'll cause far more problems than it solves. Fuck-- Speed Limit on the PA Turnpike is 65-- I used to consistently drive 90+ on it for weeks and never even SAW a cop unless there was an accident (stopped when I reailzed just how horrible my gas mileage was). Speed Limit signs are seen as guidelines, not limits, and we will always have underage drinkers, it's just that so far we haven't made it low enough that those who do aren't so fucking retarded and young that they'll kill themselves in droves.

That's a huge myth. Drivers generally don't drive above what the average speed is, and in places where the limit was raised, studies have shown that they don't automatically raise the average speed. Hell, I get nervous driving more than 70-75MPH on the two-lane Gene Snyder (our 65 speed limit interstate).

Also, we used to have an 18-year-old limit on alcohol, and many countries still do. Sure, there will be some underage drinking, but not as much as we have now. Plus, it's just the principal of the matter. You are an ADULT, so why the fuck can't you drink beer until your 21? That doesn't even make sense. That's like saying "well, you're an adult, but not really". The whole "old enough to kill for your country, but not to drink" kinda throws every argument for the 21 limit out the window.

[Tessian]

I stand by the speed limit one. On regular 2 lane suburban roads yes, the posted speed limits of 35-45 are normally followed...mostly because if someone ahead of you does you have no choice but to as well.

Highways, at least in NE US, are insane. 6 lane highway-- anyone doing the speed limit is in the right lane, 5-10+ in the middle lane, and 15+ in the left lane. These days I'll go 75 in the left lane and still have to constantly switch to the middle to let people past.

[Kupek]

Addendum to the scientific theory discussion, which Seeker got right: scientific theories can <i>never</i> be proved correct. They can only be disproved with disagreeing data, or supported with agreeing data. But no amount of data in agreement <i>proves</i> a theory. It just makes us that much more confident. It is inherently impossible to gather the infinite amount of evidence required to prove a theory is correct.

Creationist and Intelligent Design proponents, however, don't understand that science works this way, and jump on the "just a theory" bandwagon as if it means something.

And Tessian, sadly, there are a decent number of groups who push for abstiencen only education. A friend of mine works for a sociologist professor, and they perform statistical analysis of the effectiveness of these studies. The conclusion is always that there is no evidence of effectiveness. But these groups don't do it because they've seen evidence of its effectiveness, they do it because they're convinced it's the moral thing to do. Among some religious conservatives, there is a push-back against birth control. Consider the reasons why <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/18/busin ... login">sex can't be used to sell condoms on tv</a>.

RIAA: Apple chooses $0.99 a song on iTunes, not the RIAA. And it's a carefully tuned number to encourage impulse buys, yet still generate a profit. You might not <i>like</i> this reason, but it is the reason.

MPAA: Breasts do not make a movie NC-17. They don't always make it R, either.

Private schools: Educating kids is expensive. Religious institutions do it because they feel they have a moral mandate; they're willing to eat the cost. You're less likely to find other people willing to finance and organize a school when they have no issue with the already existing public education system.

I share a lot of your frustrations, but some are over reactions. I want some of these things to happen, but I also understand the reasons why they won't, or that such a change takes an even longer amount of time. You seem to have difficulty accepting the reasons for things you don't like. I share some of your wishes, but I understand why some of the issues are contentious. You seem unable or unwilling to understand why people might disagree with you.

[Zeus]

I stand by the speed limit one. On regular 2 lane suburban roads yes, the posted speed limits of 35-45 are normally followed...mostly because if someone ahead of you does you have no choice but to as well.

Highways, at least in NE US, are insane. 6 lane highway-- anyone doing the speed limit is in the right lane, 5-10+ in the middle lane, and 15+ in the left lane. These days I'll go 75 in the left lane and still have to constantly switch to the middle to let people past.

Here in Ontario, we have 400-series highways which are basically like the big freeways down there. The cops have come out and said that although the posted limit is 100 the real limit is 120. They've even gone so far as to stop people going the limit or slightly over in the left lane and telling them they need to move the fuck over 'cause they're being dangerous.

The limits should be raised to what the cops are basically allowing and then a severe penalty should be levied on those who break it. That way, the limit reflects reality and you ensure people don't surpass it.

I like Finland's percentage of yearly earnings method. If you go 10 mph over the limit, you get docked, say, 1% of your yearly earnings ($400 if you make $40,000). Go 20 mph (or kmph for those countries who like science) and you get 2%. Not sure if you guys in the US have demerit points, but there should be some "if you do this too often you get your licence suspended" penalty too. Make it severe enough and people will obey.

And iTunes is set by market demand. If idiots won't buy them, they'll drop in price. Blame the consumers on this one

And to prove you even more right, Kup: religions groups educating children is a means of investing for the future with a veil of morality.

[SineSwiper]

RIAA: Apple chooses $0.99 a song on iTunes, not the RIAA. And it's a carefully tuned number to encourage impulse buys, yet still generate a profit. You might not <i>like</i> this reason, but it is the reason.

Not really. Weird Al recommends that you don't buy iTunes because they rip off the artists. The articles shows some staggering numbers: the record label gets 65 to 80 cents per song. Of that, only 4 fucking cents goes to the artist.

Apple chooses that price? No, the record labels are forcing most of the price on them. If Apple either got a better contract with the labels or bypassed them altogether, they could sell for something more reasonable, like $.25 to $.35 per song. Hell, even 50 cents would be a helluva lot better, as long as the artist is getting a good cut.

Also: http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

MPAA: Breasts do not make a movie NC-17. They don't always make it R, either.

Sometimes you don't even need to show anything to get a NC-17 rating...

Private schools: Educating kids is expensive. Religious institutions do it because they feel they have a moral mandate; they're willing to eat the cost. You're less likely to find other people willing to finance and organize a school when they have no issue with the already existing public education system.

Surely there are plenty of people who think otherwise. Everybody I've talk to are unhappy with the public school system, and the non-religious folk really wish there was a choice. (Hell, even the religious aren't hardcore enough to take them to a Catholic school.)

[Tessian]

US licenses can receive "points" which if you get enough in a set period of time (they do come off over time, I think 0.5 points a year?) you get your license suspended...but only the most dangerous of drivers get that far. Anyone else is terrified of getting points because your insurance company will start lubing up the extra thick dildo...

Speed limits are off, but at least as far as I can tell in SE Pennsylvania, there isn't nearly enough of a police presence to enforce the limits anyway...so if it ain't too broken don't fix it.

Abstinence, Stem Cells, Abortion...someone needs to step in and say "Anyone whose position on these matters is heavily biased by religious morals and NOT by logical thought you don't get a say"

It all comes down to bias... sometimes I wonder if we don't need some sort of AI / higher intelligence to govern us...

[Zeus]

MPAA rating of Live Free or Die Hard: to give it a PG-13 rating (the other three were R), all they needed was the F-bombs to be taken out, none of the action/killing

http://www.mania.com/55089.html

Bitch away, Sine :-)

[Tessian]

w00t! Gratuitous violence has NOTHING on naughty curse words!

Seriously...can we just desensitize curse words? Why the hell are some words taboo? Words hurt my ass... Everyone must use "fuck" in conversation at least 40x a day for a month...then no one will give a shit about it (shit will be next month)

[Zeus]

w00t! Gratuitous violence has NOTHING on naughty curse words!

Seriously...can we just desensitize curse words? Why the hell are some words taboo? Words hurt my ass... Everyone must use "fuck" in conversation at least 40x a day for a month...then no one will give a shit about it (shit will be next month)

Curse words are so freakin' subjective, too. It's OK to say "damn" now whereas 50 years ago, it was as bad as "fuck". Bitch ain't so bad anymore, especially since you see the high-society types using it all the time (dog show people).

Next thing you know, "frak" will become the worst swear word. That's the most blatant example of how stupid the swear word ban on TV really is. They say "frak" or "motherfrakker" a few times an ep and no prob. Same meaning as "fuck" or "motherfucker", even starts with the same letter and has the same number of letters, but it gets by fine. So it's all about semantics with no caring about context or meaning.

Frakkin' hypocritical if you ask me :-)

[Zeus]

US licenses can receive "points" which if you get enough in a set period of time (they do come off over time, I think 0.5 points a year?) you get your license suspended...but only the most dangerous of drivers get that far. Anyone else is terrified of getting points because your insurance company will start lubing up the extra thick dildo...

Speed limits are off, but at least as far as I can tell in SE Pennsylvania, there isn't nearly enough of a police presence to enforce the limits anyway...so if it ain't too broken don't fix it.

Abstinence, Stem Cells, Abortion...someone needs to step in and say "Anyone whose position on these matters is heavily biased by religious morals and NOT by logical thought you don't get a say"

It all comes down to bias... sometimes I wonder if we don't need some sort of AI / higher intelligence to govern us...

Yeah, up here, they're called demerit points. I think it's 15 and you get a suspension. You can also get instant suspensions for things like reckless or drunk driving. I believe up here they last for 3 years then are removed.

That's the thing, you can't just say "you don't get a say". That's the whole idea of free speech and a free society. It's when people are persecuted for saying something that's ridiculous. At the end of the day, regardless of how strongly you feel about something, you have to tolerate someone feeling equally or even stronger about that but on the opposite side. We don't, which is why we don't live in a democracy.

I think people who don't bother thinking about something and just base their opinion on what they're told by religion or someone else are fucking morons and shouldn't have the right to vote or do anything that affects another human being (note: I didn't say I hate religion, I said I hate idiots who use it as an excuse to not think). But you have to put your personal feelings aside and say "it's their right to do so".

Don't forget, it's people's right to be ignorant, racist, discriminatory, dumbass bigots as well. If you try to force them to use their minds to think even when they don't want to, it's the same as a religious person trying to force you to embrace religion even if you don't want to.

[Ishamael]

Correct prioritization would take care of a lot of problems. For example, let's concentrate on removing violent criminals from society over spending huge amounts of tax payer money on things that aren't hurting anyone else (e.g., drug/prostitution busts) or having cops shake down citizens for chickenshit things like going 5 miles over the speed limit or having a license plate that needs renewing.

[SineSwiper]

Or creating a meth database, so that when you get convicted of owning brake fluid, the government will be sure to fuck you over for life.