On Michael Vick

[Nev]

Anyone besides me feel like public reaction to him has reached an unhealthy level?

I don't really support the dogfighting, and etc., but we tend to treat a LOT of animals in this country in ways that make Vick's dogfighting look less egregious in comparison - factory farming and destruction of habitat through environmental dumping come to mind. And yet, people seem almost to be relishing their comments towards Vick, mostly of the "I will never take my family to another Vick game, he's scum" variety.

I'm starting to actually, legitimately dislike a lot of the personalities I'm seeing talking shit about Vick, just because it seems to me that people are hopping on the hate/contempt bandwagon out of nothing more than a desire to take their bad days and lives out on someone else. Again, I don't support the dogfighting, but really, the way I feel about things, if you've taken your family to eat at a fast food restaurant more than twice in the last month, I don't want to hear you talking a thing about Michael Vick.

Seems like people love their dogs so much that they're forgetting that our way of life has a bad, bad habit of completely destroying a whole lot of animal life. I'm not even going to go into the "be-tough-and-badass-at-all-costs-until-you-fuck-up-then-we're-going-to-hate-you" attitude in the NFL that I think precipitated this too. Just wish people could separate themselves from their own lives and dogs a little bit, it seems very hypocritical of them to call so loudly for public condemnation of Vick when most people really don't live their lives in a way that affects the world in a much better way, all things and effects considered.

I personally think Vick will serve time, but he should be allowed to play after that. I don't see a reason to destroy the career of a talented athlete who, contrary to people's jealous internet b.s., *has* worked hard to get where he is today - probably much harder than the people bitching and whining about him on the Internet.

[Oracle]

He's a degenerate who obviously has something fucked up in his head (I'm sorry, but people who are mercilessly cruel to animals are close to having the same attitude towards humans one day).

I don't believe he should have the right to play again. Will the NFL see it the same way? Not sure. On one side, they may not want to be associated with him anymore because of bad press. On the other hand, if he comes back after prison, it will cause headlines, and interest in the league (positive or negative).

I'm just hoping he gets it bad enough in prison that he can't play anymore.

[Nev]

Seems like a lot of emotionally based reasoning to me, Oracle.

Eaten a burger in the last week? Does it make any difference to the cow or bull that it was slaughtered for feed, instead of raised to fight? Chances are, that cow didn't have a life any better than Vick's dogs, especially if it was raised in factory-farm conditions.

Bear in mind that I'm not advocating people to stop eating meat, but I do kind of think people might want to realize that it's a tough world out there, and our lifestyle contributes to that. I think it's intensely hypocritical for us to trash Vick on dogfighting without realizing that our actions and way of life routinely cause the destruction of a whole host of animals. I'm not going vegan-crazy on anyone, but I think we could at least afford Vick the chance to judge him in the wider context of the situation, the way we would any human being - presumably.

[Lox]

But that's just it, Nev. You talk about the conditions of the factory farm animals as if the common person knows or thinks about these things. I highly doubt that these conditions pop into someone's head as they are eating a burger. (Whether they should or not is a different story).

What Vick did was thought out, purposeful cruelty for the pleasure of watching and betting on the fights. There is no way he can claim ignorance of the conditions as most people can when eating meat. I agree with Oracle. He has something messed up in the head.

[Nev]

Ignorance isn't really an excuse for the effects of one's actions, though, Lox. If it comes out the same way in the end, is it really all that fulfilling to say "Well, I didn't know any better," and excuse yourself the consequences? It seems like an abdication of responsibility to me, in some sense.

I think it's apparent that Vick has something a bit wrong upstairs, but is he really much better than Pacman Jones - who "made it rain" with Nelly at a strip club with several thousand one-dollar bills and subsequently smashed a stripper's head against the stage when she tried to start shoving it in a bag? (And that's not even mentioning the fact that someone got shot and paralyzed at that incident as well.) No one's called for Pacman's suspension in the last few weeks, though I'm aware he's hardly a popular figure.

We kind of have this rampant-agression-is-a-good-thing-until-you-cross-the-line thing going on in the NFL - I can pull you up a half dozen player names, easily, who committed a crime of aggression and didn't even admit guilt the way Vick did.

[Oracle]

When I eat my burger, I know that there are people in the beef industry who take living animals, and kill them, to both make a living and feed me.
I don't hear of them placing bets who's going to win, the knocker (guy who kills the cow) or the cow. I don't hear of them shooting, maming (before death), electrocuting (to death) the cows for amusement.

I'm sure the cows aren't the happiest animals on earth when they enter the slaughter house. It doesn't last long, and in most places, it's handled as humanely as possible. The places that aren't humane and show signs of many animals suffering? Close em down.

People don't seem to think of the dogs that actualyl WIN the fights, either. They aren't horribly killed like described above, no. They are forced to fight over and over, which I'm sure must be entirely enjoyable, all of those horrible injuries that have to be dealt with.

I see what you're tryign to do with the cattle industry parallel, but it just isn't the same.

Vick is a sick fuck. Period.

I don't know much about Pacman Jones or the circumstances you're speaking about, but if he's convicted, then no, he shouldn't be able to play anymore. People playing in the NFL have not only their image to uphold, but that of the league, their franchise, and their fans.

[Flip]

Animals are just so caring and innocent! We're such an ugly, hatefull, and corrupt species that regular crimes dont bother me as much as cruelty to animals...

[Eric]

Paris Hilton got more attention.

I highly doubt you'll see people giving heightened awareness to animal cruelty when it dies down.

It'll be back to business as usual.

[Lox]

Ignorance isn't really an excuse for the effects of one's actions, though, Lox. If it comes out the same way in the end, is it really all that fulfilling to say "Well, I didn't know any better," and excuse yourself the consequences? It seems like an abdication of responsibility to me, in some sense.

I'm not saying it's an excuse. I'm saying that it's not hypocritical for people to be upset with Vick while eating meat because it's not the same thing.

The mindset of someone like Vick and someone eating a burger are totally different. It's not necesarily the end result of what he did that bothers me as much as what kind of a person he is.

[Kupek]

I think dogfighting is markedly different from the conditions in factory farms, although I object to both. I find factory farms ethically indefensible, but it's an implementation of an ethically defensible concept. I think dogfighting is ethically indefensible in all cases.

But I find myself objecting far more to the amount of coverage this story gets. Very little of the "news" is actually news. Most of it is entertainment. Which leaves us in a counter-intuitive situation: even though we have access to orders of magnitude more information than in past generations, I think we receive less actual news. The signal-to-noise ratio is too low.

[Julius Seeker]

An animal brought up in a factory farm likely has a much worse life than an animal brought up to fight. Have you ever seen factory farmed aninmals? They are far too unhealthy to fight effectively.

[Tessian]

An animal brought up in a factory farm likely has a much worse life than an animal brought up to fight. Have you ever seen factory farmed aninmals? They are far too unhealthy to fight effectively.

You've got to be kidding... right?

First, feed animals aren't made healthy because muscle doesn't make nearly as good meat as fat does.

Second, the actual fights that those dogs are put through are actually the least harmful thing they probably do in a day. The "training" and "resignation" portions are the worst. Regardless of how farm animals are treated-- we do not set them on fire, electrocute them, beat the shit out of them, etc.

Do farm animals lead a healthy life? No. Do they lead a life full of pain, suffering and torture? No where close to this.

[Julius Seeker]

An animal brought up in a factory farm likely has a much worse life than an animal brought up to fight. Have you ever seen factory farmed aninmals? They are far too unhealthy to fight effectively.

You've got to be kidding... right?

First, feed animals aren't made healthy because muscle doesn't make nearly as good meat as fat does.

Second, the actual fights that those dogs are put through are actually the least harmful thing they probably do in a day. The "training" and "resignation" portions are the worst. Regardless of how farm animals are treated-- we do not set them on fire, electrocute them, beat the shit out of them, etc.

Do farm animals lead a healthy life? No. Do they lead a life full of pain, suffering and torture? No where close to this.

Do you actually have any evidence to back up your statements? Because I think you're talking completely out of your ass.

[bovine]

I saw today that apparently he "found god" or some terrible cop-out shit to make people not hate him as much.

[Ishamael]

What Vick did is unbelievably cruel and reprehensible, no doubt about it. But there's a certain cognitive dissonance going on here too. That is to say, there's a million things more worthy of this level of outcry and press than Vick and his retard buddies fighting and killing dogs.

[Tessian]

Evidence for what? That meat is more valuable when it's not lean, or that dog fighting dogs are brutally beaten and tortured? The first is pretty basic knowledge.. and the 2nd has been part of the news around this story for weeks.

Or did you want me to cite evidence on my conclusion that "not allowing cows to exercise isn't as bad as setting a dog on fire for losing a match" ?

Bovine-- I saw that too... utter bs. Every celebrity who gets caught red handed in trouble "finds Jesus" or whatever. Just because you believe your new god will forgive you doesn't mean society has.

[Tessian]

What Vick did is unbelievably cruel and reprehensible, no doubt about it. But there's a certain cognitive dissonance going on here too. That is to say, there's a million things more worthy of this level of outcry and press than Vick and his retard buddies fighting and killing dogs.

But American public LOVES to trash celebrities. This is definitely a lot worse than Paris Hilton, but still worth attention... just not as much as it's probably seeing.

[Nev]

What Vick did is unbelievably cruel and reprehensible, no doubt about it. But there's a certain cognitive dissonance going on here too. That is to say, there's a million things more worthy of this level of outcry and press than Vick and his retard buddies fighting and killing dogs.

I think that was more or less what I was intending to say. Good to see I'm not the only one who noticed.

[Nev]

An animal brought up in a factory farm likely has a much worse life than an animal brought up to fight. Have you ever seen factory farmed aninmals? They are far too unhealthy to fight effectively.

I don't know if I want to quantify "worse" or "better" in this case, but I can kind of go with "bad" in both cases.

A factory-farmed animal usually lives its life denied one of the most basic freedoms given to most living things - the right to move. They're locked in cages so small that they are unable to even move their musculature, which badly affects the health of the animal and - contrary to what people are saying - doesn't do us any good when we eat the animal, either. Depending on the farm conditions, they may spend part of their lives covered in their own feces, which isn't terribly out of line with wild animal existence but usually doesn't take place to the extent that it does in the worse factory farms, as I understand it.

An animal bred to fight will probably be fed reasonably well (though it may have to fight for the food) but may or may not have adequate living conditions between fights. The one thing it *can* look forward to is a consistent life of forced aggression (ghetto parallels, anyone?) and a likely death from either injury, if it fights, or being killed (the way that Vick and friends did their dogs) if it doesn't.

Personally, neither one of these choices sounds absolutely fucking great to me. In fact, they both sound short, nasty, and brutal. The first one is degrading while the second is terrifying, and for that reason alone I'd probably choose the second over the first, if I had to, just because a Gladiator-style existence has a certain horrid romantic appeal to it as opposed to wallowing in my own fat, shit, and despair in a cage, but in reality I'm sure the existences of both of these creatures sucks absolute ass.

That and other abuses are why I think it's hypocritical to call for Vick's head without looking at a larger picture.

[Julius Seeker]

not allowing cows to exercise

I know that even you're not ignorant enough to believe that is all it is.

I want evidence that people who raise animals to fight raise them any worse than factory farms do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g2rUeeyBuU

You haven't really shown any evidence yet.

[Nev]

Much as I usually never agree with Seek on anything, I will stand with him on opposition to factory farming. It's a bad deal, and it's not just a bad deal for health reasons, either - factory farms are some of the worst biopollutors we have going, both in terms of toxicity *and* greenhouse gas emissions. I'll go dig up sources on that when I have time.

[Tessian]

I never meant that factory farms don't have pretty bad treatment of their livestock, but I still believe that dog fighting is worse. Seek you can link me as many documentaries on factory farms as you want... but I doubt there are any non-amatuerish documentaries on the conditions of dog fighting.

At this point we might as well get into the discussion of what animals deserve what treatment. Do animals that we breed purely for food get the same treatment we give to pets that turn into illegitimate children for some? Because technically killing dogs isn't that bad legally... but the value and sentiment many have put on their pets make this a moral outcry and not a legal one. So while he'll get little in the way of punishment legally... hopefully he'll be black balled for quite some time.