I will hit 69 tonight and in the next day or so I should hit 70. Pretty pumped up, as this is my first char, and will obviously be my first and probally only 70. Looking forward to doing all the end of game content.
Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about...
The long WoW grind is almost over
- Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
I think that's why I never seem to spend over a month with them. I never get "hooked" on any MMO, and doing the same shit over and over again just causes me to drop out. When it comes down to it, a level or a weapon is just a number, and I don't play games to see numbers go up.
That, and I can never seem to get into a guild or group where I'm always at a similar level with other friendly people. Either they level up too fast, or the guild is a joke with people who aren't friendly at all.
FF11 was the only one I played that seem to care about some level of skill in the combat (Renkeis), but Tessian, your experience has been that it's a pretty grindy MMO. Guild Wars wasn't really grindy at all, but I just lost interest before I got into the good mass PvP battles.
That, and I can never seem to get into a guild or group where I'm always at a similar level with other friendly people. Either they level up too fast, or the guild is a joke with people who aren't friendly at all.
FF11 was the only one I played that seem to care about some level of skill in the combat (Renkeis), but Tessian, your experience has been that it's a pretty grindy MMO. Guild Wars wasn't really grindy at all, but I just lost interest before I got into the good mass PvP battles.
Rosalina: But you didn't.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
Calling Guild Wars an MMO is kind of stretching it... it's a more advanced matchmaking system really (a graphical Battle.Net if you will). If I can only play with a small group of people and never run into other players in the game (outside of the towns) it doesn't count.
WoW was great for a while... but once you hit a certain level the quests dried up and once I found myself needing to grind an entire level just so I could join a raid or something it became ridiculous and I just stopped bothering. Strangely at the time as long as it was a quest I was happy-- so if an NPC told me to kill 20 spiders I'd do it, but if I had to do it on my own I was instantly turned off.
It destroyed MMO's for me, which is a good thing because I don't have the time for them anymore. I was tempted to try LotRO, but it's still grinding and until they come out with a game that fixes that (which may be never) I'm staying out of them.
WoW was great for a while... but once you hit a certain level the quests dried up and once I found myself needing to grind an entire level just so I could join a raid or something it became ridiculous and I just stopped bothering. Strangely at the time as long as it was a quest I was happy-- so if an NPC told me to kill 20 spiders I'd do it, but if I had to do it on my own I was instantly turned off.
It destroyed MMO's for me, which is a good thing because I don't have the time for them anymore. I was tempted to try LotRO, but it's still grinding and until they come out with a game that fixes that (which may be never) I'm staying out of them.
Blizzard didn't invent MMO's, Kupek... what you described is the basis for every Massive Multiplayer Game; they don't end. Hell I remember Asheron's Call had NO level cap. It just became insanely hard to level at one point, but you could theoretically go on forever. They just keep adding content.Kupek wrote:Blizzard are fucking geniuses. They perfected the game you never beat. And you continually pay for the privilege of not beating it.
If you ever feel a strange sense of ennui when you log in, congratulations! You managed to beat a game with no end.
He didn't say they did, and he is correct that they perfected the formula. WOW is a paragon of the genre.Tessian wrote:Blizzard didn't invent MMO's, Kupek...
The only thing WoW was even innovative was that they banked on appeasing the casual guys over the hardcore guys. Until WoW came out it was assumed that your MMORPG revenue is driven by the hardcore guy that camps in one spot for 72 hours, but this turned out to be incorrect. I don't think they perfected anything, but rather merely converted their existing Diablo/Warcraft/Starcraft fanbase into paying $15 a month for an easier version of Diablo 3. It turns out your average BNet guy is quite willing to pay $15 a month for another Blizzard game, even if played casually. I'm thinking if Nintendo made a Zelda or Pokemon online, and assuming it didn't completely suck, they'd also have millions paying $15 a month for it too.
RPG and skill do not mix. Thott in Afterlife said something that can be paraphrased as something like "I am the best player in a MMORPG because I have the best gear in the world. I have the best gear because I play more than anyone else in this world." MMORPGs tries to put all kinds of weird loops to pretend your skill matters, but unless you're borderlining mentally retarded, in the end the best player in any MMORPG is the guy with the best gear, which is almost always the guy with the most time. RPGs are too deterministic and it's trivial to come up with an optimal solution for every conceiveable situation, and after that all you have to is memorize what to do in each situation. If you want something that's skill based, FPS is the way to go.SineSwiper wrote:I think that's why I never seem to spend over a month with them. I never get "hooked" on any MMO, and doing the same shit over and over again just causes me to drop out. When it comes down to it, a level or a weapon is just a number, and I don't play games to see numbers go up.
That, and I can never seem to get into a guild or group where I'm always at a similar level with other friendly people. Either they level up too fast, or the guild is a joke with people who aren't friendly at all.
FF11 was the only one I played that seem to care about some level of skill in the combat (Renkeis), but Tessian, your experience has been that it's a pretty grindy MMO. Guild Wars wasn't really grindy at all, but I just lost interest before I got into the good mass PvP battles.
I find WoW to be more boring than painful. The fact the game is setup so if you blink you might lose half of your DPS while killing trivial stuff probably contributes to the fatigue as well. There are plenty of games that take longer to do anything than WoW, but most of them do not demand as much attention as they do in WoW. This is not because WoW is hard, but that the game is built around hammering a button every global cooldown.Eric wrote:The WoW grind? You...you think the grind is leveling?....in WoW?
So...casual....hate....unending.
Perfected you say? How is it perfect?Kupek wrote:Blizzard are fucking geniuses. They perfected the game you never beat. And you continually pay for the privilege of not beating it.
If you ever feel a strange sense of ennui when you log in, congratulations! You managed to beat a game with no end.
-Insert Inspiring Quote-
I beg to differ. There aren't a lot of skill-based MMOs, but they are out there. My dad has been hooked on Jumpgate for a while. A level 20 character can take out a maxxed out character if he's more skillful than the latter.Don Wang wrote:RPG and skill do not mix. Thott in Afterlife said something that can be paraphrased as something like "I am the best player in a MMORPG because I have the best gear in the world. I have the best gear because I play more than anyone else in this world." MMORPGs tries to put all kinds of weird loops to pretend your skill matters, but unless you're borderlining mentally retarded, in the end the best player in any MMORPG is the guy with the best gear, which is almost always the guy with the most time.
Jumpgate is a MMO space sim. It has a story to it and you collect gear just like an MMORPG, so I would still call it an MMORPG. And it's skill-based. Hell, I heard that Conan was going in the same direction. There's others out there, but they are admittedly hard to find.
Rosalina: But you didn't.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
There are obviously MMORPG that tries to make it more like a MMOFPS or whatever in terms of skill's impact, but generally these games are not very successful. Skill is something most people do not have. Time is something everyone potentially can have a lot of. No matter how much you practice at a FPS you'll probably be as good as the guys who compete professionally because a lot of the talent is innate. On the other hand if you just quit your job you could get very good at a MMORPG.SineSwiper wrote:
Jumpgate is a MMO space sim. It has a story to it and you collect gear just like an MMORPG, so I would still call it an MMORPG. And it's skill-based. Hell, I heard that Conan was going in the same direction. There's others out there, but they are admittedly hard to find.
I remember they tried to hold some PvP tournament for WoW with preset characters (i.e. the more skilled guy would win) and it flopped because it was boring to watch, and I think the team that won the world championship whatever dissolved because no one was sponsoring them anyway. On the other hand people, at least in Korea, watch stuff like Starcraft televised because you can obviously tell the difference between a good player vs not and it's fun to watch.
I will defidently tell you. I am set up for my Shadow Lab run now to get my first Kara key as well. My problem is that I am an arms/fury spec warrior so it is hard for me to find a party other than with folks I know.
Oh and for the record, Asheron's Call had a level cap of 128 and it took 2 years of retail for the first person to make it.
Oh and for the record, Asheron's Call had a level cap of 128 and it took 2 years of retail for the first person to make it.
Yup, the first guy to hit it was a war mage named Tim the EnchanterTessian wrote:Seriously? I coulda sworn there was no level cap... oh wellM'k'n'zy wrote: Oh and for the record, Asheron's Call had a level cap of 128 and it took 2 years of retail for the first person to make it.
I remember him! Damn... LoL
Asheron's Call had a personal flair to it no one else has been able to replicate (not even Asheron's Call 2). I can't describe it... but it just seemed like a game that the developers CARED about and played. The plot made sure it impacted Everyone and half the time what happened next was decided BY the players.
The best was the defense of the final shard that kept Bael'Zharoth (sp?) imprisoned. He was basically the satan of Derith that Asheron locked away long ago. Players were given the choice: Destroy the shard and release him or defend it from harm. It was located in a PvP area so the decision was up to the players what to do. Every server destroyed the shard within a week except ours (yay Thistledown!). But since the story had to be the same for every server the dev team had to destroy it... so they logged in as boss's and after a few failed attempts managed to destroy the shard. After that our server got a statue celebrating its defense-- you don't get that kind of personality out of WoW.
Then of course there was the next month where devs would log in as Bael'Zharoth and wreck havok. One time he made cows rain down from the sky above a city
Asheron's Call had a personal flair to it no one else has been able to replicate (not even Asheron's Call 2). I can't describe it... but it just seemed like a game that the developers CARED about and played. The plot made sure it impacted Everyone and half the time what happened next was decided BY the players.
The best was the defense of the final shard that kept Bael'Zharoth (sp?) imprisoned. He was basically the satan of Derith that Asheron locked away long ago. Players were given the choice: Destroy the shard and release him or defend it from harm. It was located in a PvP area so the decision was up to the players what to do. Every server destroyed the shard within a week except ours (yay Thistledown!). But since the story had to be the same for every server the dev team had to destroy it... so they logged in as boss's and after a few failed attempts managed to destroy the shard. After that our server got a statue celebrating its defense-- you don't get that kind of personality out of WoW.
Then of course there was the next month where devs would log in as Bael'Zharoth and wreck havok. One time he made cows rain down from the sky above a city