WGA files with NLRB against the studios

[Ishamael]

What does the existence of an oligopoly (in your opinion) have to do with with the "fair share" paid to someone? And what does that have to do with WGA member's being allegedly "screwed" for being paid what they agreed to be paid in the contract they signed in 1988?

Maybe I'm forgetful, but I don't believe we've covered any of these topics here, so you wouldn't be repeating yourself.

First of all, this isn't an opinion, it's economic theory that's is tested and true.

I think that needs to be something that's established, I'm applying theory not formulating an opinion here.

As we'll see, your entire point is based on a made-up "fact".

A monopoly or oligopoly creates a situation which decrease competition big time often even eliminating it.

Wait, so are you saying movie makers in Hollywood are stopping other people from making movies? Of course not! All they are saying is that if you want to make movies at certain particular studios, you abide by their terms. And as you can see, independent studios are free to negotiate whatever deals they want. So there is zero evidence competition is in any way being decreased by the existence of an alleged studio oligopoly.

And in much the same way, the WGA tries to come up with their own set of terms. The WGA says if you want us to work for you, you have to abide by their terms. And while we're on the subject of decreasing competition, the WGA is FAR more guilty of than the studios could ever hope to be. At least you have legitimate independent studios. Try working in Hollywood without being a WGA member. It's impossible - people think you are a disgusting evil bad person if you try and you'll be blacklisted.

So when it comes to decreasing competition, the WGA is far more effective than the studios.

Not sure you can really call them a cartel but take a look at OPEC and you get the idea since it's not like any one nation can just increase oil production to give themselves a supply advantage which in turn decreases the price.

The moguls would more have an "unofficial" understanding. Even though it would benefit, say, Sony to pay the writers right now and have them back on board 'cause they have so many TV shows, they won't do it 'cause they don't want to set a precedent.

You just made that up. You have no evidence that it would benefit Sony chiefs to pay writers more right now rather than starving them out and forcing them to sign a better deal (for the studios). You have zero evidence this is true for anyone, except the ones who've decided to sign deals.

That creates a situation of very imperfect competition since it makes perfect business sense to do it but they won't/can't. As a result, the writers (and others) don't get the money they would ("should") be making if there was perfect competition. That's why I keep saying they're not getting as much as they "should", it's because the moguls have minimized the competition in the market )/basic economic lesson...again).

Again, this "basic economic lesson" is based on a fictional assertion.

BTW, this is why the NLRB exists, to stop situations like this from occuring (and why the WGA has filed with them). Heck, this is why you have a government, to look out for the people. That's the whole "by the people for the people" thing that most voters seem to have forgotten about years ago.

Situations like what? What is "this" exactly? Are you referring to lack of competition? You posted in another thread news about the WGA successfully negotiating temporary with other independent studios. So competition does exist and it hasn't been "minimized" or eliminated as you claimed. So explain "this" in more detail.

[Zeus]

Marvel just joined the growing list of independants who are saying "you know, these writers aren't really asking for anything insane, it's actually fair what they want".

http://movies.ign.com/articles/847/847635p1.html

The fact that the moguls signed that deal recently with the DGA is a bit of a kick in the balls to the writers. I'm curious to see if they sign with the SAG as well while still leaving the WGA on the side, basically telling them "we need directors and actors since we have all these scripts in the can....screw you, writers, you suffer".

[SineSwiper]

I wonder if the SAG will purposely hold up the talks until the WGA gets what they want. After all, they have been big on announcing their support, and it would be bad form to immediately sign something and leave them high & dry.

[Zeus]

I wonder if the SAG will purposely hold up the talks until the WGA gets what they want. After all, they have been big on announcing their support, and it would be bad form to immediately sign something and leave them high & dry.

That's true, although the directors supported them as well and they signed.

I"m curious what the effect of a lot of indie studios signing interim deals will have. If there's enough work going around to sustain for a little and the writers are willing to wait it out, I think they get what they want. It's really up to them.

By the time the SAG strikes they'll be out of work for 8 months. The SAG is the wildcard, you can't do jack without the actors other than reality shows and who the fuck wants more of those. All those movie scripts in the can will mean nothing if that happens.

Now, if the SAG and WGA stick together (if SAG don't sign without WGA), the moguls will succumb faster than Ish in Lotus' basement.

[Ishamael]

Marvel just joined the growing list of independants who are saying "you know, these writers aren't really asking for anything insane, it's actually fair what they want".

If they thought it was so fair, then the writers wouldn't have had to strike to get them to sign it.

Indies don't have the pockets of the big guys and they don't have alternate revenue streams (i.e.you'll never see Marvel produce Reality TV). Thus writers have far more leverage over them than the big boys.

Make no mistake - Marvel (and every other indie) hates they had to sign the interim deal, but they had no choice. Good for the writers.

[SineSwiper]

If they thought it was so fair, then the writers wouldn't have had to strike to get them to sign it.

That type of logic is flawed. If one of the group (the moguls, for example) thought that they had the power to make the writers break, then they would reject even a reasonable request for the pursue of power.

Such is the case for all monopolies, or companies that at least cooperate with the same decision.

[Ishamael]

If they thought it was so fair, then the writers wouldn't have had to strike to get them to sign it.

That type of logic is flawed. If one of the group (the moguls, for example) thought that they had the power to make the writers break, then they would reject even a reasonable request for the pursue of power.

What is "reasonable"? Different people have different definitions.

Anyway in this case, it is the writers who have the power to make the smaller, weaker studios break. They're obviously not afraid to use it.

Such is the case for all monopolies, or companies that at least cooperate with the same decision.

Well, obviously many companies are not cooperating here since many are signing independent contracts.

[SineSwiper]

By "many", you mean a bunch of small fry. The only big time deal that they (just recently) signed was with Lion's Gate.

Besides, when have the players that are holding all of the money ever been the good guys? It's always the individuals trying to make a living that get fucked over. Obviously, if writers are still making less than 6-digit figures and the moguls rake in 7 to 8-digit figures each year, there's clearly something wrong with the contract.

[Zeus]

Big business vs labour, the eternal struggle.

At the end of the day, Ish obviously feels that there's no sympathy for freaking writers who make millions just from writing a script and aren't nearly as important to the end product as directors or actors. Then you have Sine and I who feel that given the profits made, writers are severly underpaid and what they're asking for is reasonable.

Really, it's a never ending argument, it's just one side vs the other with completely differing points of view. We should stop the argument here (it'll never go anywhere) and just see what happens then comment on it.

I'll let you guys argue it out. I don't see any benefit to arguing this point as it's just differing sides (by us) and no one's really gonna change their point of view regardless of the argument presented by the other side.

I'll just comment on the results of the strike and the stories along the way rather than providing/arguing opinion.

[Ishamael]

By "many", you mean a bunch of small fry. The only big time deal that they (just recently) signed was with Lion's Gate.

Well, you have to get your victories where you can. Companies like Marvel are small compared to the Paramounts of the world, but I'd argue they still have significant influence.

Besides, when have the players that are holding all of the money ever been the good guys? It's always the individuals trying to make a living that get fucked over.

Capitalism is all about the smartest, most creative people getting an advantage over not-as-smart, less creative people. (And yes, many rich people use pre-existing familial connections to get an advantage that's no available to most of us...however, these can be overcome with ingenuity) Now I know many of you believe the guy on the proverbial assembly line is just as smart and creative as the CEO. I've rarely found this to be the case.

Also, the job of big company CEO's is to keep their shareholders' stock prices high. Doing this means paying their employees as little as possible.

Combine these two facts and you get a world that's not necessarily pretty all the time...

Obviously, if writers are still making less than 6-digit figures and the moguls rake in 7 to 8-digit figures each year, there's clearly something wrong with the contract.

No, you need a REASON to back this up. If the so-called mogul is the only guy who can negotiate a deal between writers, directors, producers to get a film made AND get the financial backing to produce a multi-million profit film, then perhaps he does "deserve" his salary. At the end of the day, it's up to the stockholders who own the company to say what he "deserver". They can vote to fire him if they think he earns too much.

According to the number thrown around, the average writer salary is $200K (i.e., NOT less than 6 figures). BTW, do you earn 6 figures yourself? You seem very passionate about these writers getting a 6 figure salary since the top moguls earn millions. So I was wondering if this also applied to your own life.

[Ishamael]

Big business vs labour, the eternal struggle.

At the end of the day, Ish obviously feels that there's no sympathy for freaking writers who make millions just from writing a script and aren't nearly as important to the end product as directors or actors. Then you have Sine and I who feel that given the profits made, writers are severly underpaid and what they're asking for is reasonable.

Writers of hit shows and movies are often millionaires themselves. The average salary is $200K. No, I don't feel "sorry" for these people. The average person in their profession earns more than the average person is my profession.

But it's not about feeling sorry for anyone, anyway. At the end of the day, you negotiate a price for your services and you get paid for your services. That's what you're "worth".

I believe you guys have a lot of vague concepts about "fairness" and lots of training about the virtues of unions and the "evils" of corporations floating around your heads, but not much concrete data or real world understanding.

Really, it's a never ending argument, it's just one side vs the other with completely differing points of view. We should stop the argument here (it'll never go anywhere) and just see what happens then comment on it.

I'll let you guys argue it out. I don't see any benefit to arguing this point as it's just differing sides (by us) and no one's really gonna change their point of view regardless of the argument presented by the other side.

I'll just comment on the results of the strike and the stories along the way rather than providing/arguing opinion.

IMO, there is no argument to begin with. This is all very simple.

(a)The writers ($200K/year employees) want more money.
(b)So they're withholding their services to get that money.
(c)For some smaller studios with the means to pay and the *need* for writers, they are able to come up with at least an interim agreement.

Also, many of these indie studios aren't pubically traded companies and they don't have stockholders to answer to. So when the owners of your company asks you, the CEO, why your profit fell 10%, they aren't going to care one lick that you negotiated a "fair" deal with writers. They'll fire you and get someone who can keep the profit margins up.

This is why only "greedy" moguls have these jobs, BTW.

(d)Larger studios with diverse income streams and bigger pockets are waiting for writers to back off. There's a breaking point for them too of course. If revenue lowers below what it'd cost to pay the writers what they want, then of course they'll end up paying the writers.

[Zeus]

I've never understood why people focus so hard on the absolute value of the compensation as opposed to the percentages. Who gives a flyin' fuck if the salary is $200k for a writer? If the average movie makes $80M between theatrical and rental/DVD sales (look at how much movies pull in after they leave theatires; it's not odd for a flick to do $10M+ in rentals in ONE WEEK anymore) then they're getting, on average, 2.5%. Is that really a fair measure of their contribution when you have directors and actors making at LEAST 10x that? Often in these flicks, the actor 3rd or 4th down the list makes substantially more than the writer. You tryin' to tell me that Sally Field was more important to the success of Forrest Gump than Eli Roth?

Toss in the residuals and the discrepancy becomes even bigger

It's the same argument people like to use to bash "millionaire" sports players. There's a strong argument to be made than many elite athletes are severly underpaid based on their business production. But you don't see anyone arguing that.

[SineSwiper]

I'm with Zeus. I'm kinda tired of arguing the point. I don't know why this thread keeps getting resurfaced.

[Ishamael]

I've never understood why people focus so hard on the absolute value of the compensation as opposed to the percentages. Who gives a flyin' fuck if the salary is $200k for a writer? If the average movie makes $80M between theatrical and rental/DVD sales (look at how much movies pull in after they leave theatires; it's not odd for a flick to do $10M+ in rentals in ONE WEEK anymore) then they're getting, on average, 2.5%. Is that really a fair measure of their contribution when you have directors and actors making at LEAST 10x that? Often in these flicks, the actor 3rd or 4th down the list makes substantially more than the writer. You tryin' to tell me that Sally Field was more important to the success of Forrest Gump than Eli Roth?

Toss in the residuals and the discrepancy becomes even bigger...

Eli Roth is a multimillionaire, and he's probably earned millions from Forest Gump alone (as well as the original book author). He's a horrible example if you're trying to sway me.

Let me ask you something - how much money does your company earn per year? Why don't you go and force the boss to pay you more? Try to explain to him what's "fair". If you work for a large multinational, it may earn billions yet you don't see a significant percentage of that. Why?

Because you're replaceable is why. Most writers are similarly replaceable. Large salaries are gotten because you have leverage. Forget words like "deserve" and remember words like "leverage" and capitalism will start to make more sense to you.

People don't go into business to pay people a "fair wage". They go to make money. And workers are free to leave if they don't like it.

Update: Eric Roth wrote Gump, not Eli.

It's the same argument people like to use to bash "millionaire" sports players. There's a strong argument to be made than many elite athletes are severly underpaid based on their business production. But you don't see anyone arguing that.

What planet do you live on? I hear people whining about spoiled rich athletes all the time. I can't count the number of times I've heard people make the "The problem with this country is that athletes earn millions, while teachers earn jack" argument a billion times. "He makes $30 million /year just to swing a bat. Oh whoah was me!"

Supply and demand determine what you earn. Period.

[Ishamael]

I'm with Zeus. I'm kinda tired of arguing the point. I don't know why this thread keeps getting resurfaced.

It's always helpful to see multiple viewpoints on things. It's educational if nothing else. You may not be swayed, but at least you see how others view the situation.

[SineSwiper]

What multiple view points? This entire thread is composed of me, you, and Zeus.

[Eric]

What multiple view points? This entire thread is composed of gay.

Fixed.

Too easy.

[SineSwiper]

Yeah, okay, what's your viewpoint, Eric?

[Eric]

Yeah, okay, what's your viewpoint, Eric?

Don't try and involve me in your little circle jerk now.

[Ishamael]

What multiple view points? This entire thread is composed of me, you, and Zeus.

Technically, anything more than one is considered multiple. See. That's what multiple means. Multiple means more than one. .

[Zeus]

What multiple view points? This entire thread is composed of me, you, and Zeus.

Technically, anything more than one is considered multiple. See. That's what multiple means. Multiple means more than one. .

Ish, how many times do I have to say it: keep your damned fantasies to yourself

[Ishamael]

What multiple view points? This entire thread is composed of me, you, and Zeus.

Technically, anything more than one is considered multiple. See. That's what multiple means. Multiple means more than one. .

Ish, how many times do I have to say it: keep your damned fantasies to yourself

Sorry, it just slips out sometimes. Errr, that doesn't mean what it sounds like it means...

[Zeus]

Technically, anything more than one is considered multiple. See. That's what multiple means. Multiple means more than one. .

Ish, how many times do I have to say it: keep your damned fantasies to yourself

Sorry, it just slips out sometimes. Errr, that doesn't mean what it sounds like it means...

Ish, I know you get disappionted when that happens, but it only slips out due to the lack of friction. Moderation my fellow Semite :-)

[Chris]

What multiple view points? This entire thread is composed of gay.

Fixed.

Too easy.

when did I get involved?

Oh wait, Now you are right



and by the way. all of you are waaaaaaay off. especially numbers wise. writing isn't even close to a 200k a year job. it's why right now you are seeing a fuckton of screenwriters working in comics for chicken scraps. Yeah when you get a script accepted you make money. yeah when you work on an ongoing serialized TV show you can make a lot of money. but guess what.....a vast majority of writers yes may make 200k in a yeah.....then the next 5 years they could make jack shit. that's the problem. most writers live on residuals....and this isn't just towing the company line. I've got a lot of friends in the hollywood writing community. and really....there is a reason they start writing in other medium.....usually pays better.

[Ishamael]

What multiple view points? This entire thread is composed of gay.

Fixed.

Too easy.

when did I get involved?


I've got a lot of friends in the hollywood writing community.

Are they WGA members and what shows/movies have they written?

[Zeus]

All this is moot. Looks like there's gonna be a deal soon. I'm curious to see what the writers are gonna get, if they caved or not.

[Ishamael]

All this is moot. Looks like there's gonna be a deal soon. I'm curious to see what the writers are gonna get, if they caved or not.

How does that make this moot? Or was it even relevant to begin with?

See, I just enjoy arguing with you.

[Blotus]

Yawn... can we retire this bullshit?

[Zeus]

Yawn... can we retire this bullshit?

Can we have this thread limited to Ish, Sine, and I for now? :-)

Ish, of course it wasn't relevant, is anything discussed on the Internet every anything other than entertainment?

[SineSwiper]

Hmmm...there's some talk that the DGA got a raw deal out of their new contract.

[Zeus]

Hmmm...there's some talk that the DGA got a raw deal out of their new contract.

I have to see the details, I haven't been able to find them anywhere

[SineSwiper]

http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01 ... r-dga.html

[Ishamael]

Yawn... can we retire this bullshit?

Shut your fuckin' whining!

[Zeus]

http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01 ... r-dga.html

That could go either way, either the DGA did sign a shit deal or you have a militant on the WGA side and/or SAG side and even a SAG negotiating ploy.

I want to see the freakin' numbers.

[Andrew, Killer Bee]

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/1 ... Text">It's over!</a>

[Tessian]

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/1 ... Text">It's over!</a>

And everyone wins except the consumer, as usual. If you're lucky your shows will be back by September. 24 is slated for January now apparently, probably killing the series.

[SineSwiper]

And everyone wins except the consumer, as usual. If you're lucky your shows will be back by September. 24 is slated for January now apparently, probably killing the series.

Why? We've waited this long for BSG, so you fuckers can wait for your precious 24.

[Zeus]

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/1 ... Text">It's over!</a>

And everyone wins except the consumer, as usual. If you're lucky your shows will be back by September. 24 is slated for January now apparently, probably killing the series.

Kill the series? If anything, the year-long wait might actually help the show IMO. It had gotten a bit stale in Season 6 and giving everyone some time off while reinventing Season 7 (things have apparently changed quite a bit) might actually be a good reboot to the series

[Tessian]

And everyone wins except the consumer, as usual. If you're lucky your shows will be back by September. 24 is slated for January now apparently, probably killing the series.

Why? We've waited this long for BSG, so you fuckers can wait for your precious 24.

I actually care little about 24, I was just using it as an example. I used to watch BSG, then I found more entertaining things to watch for an hour-- like paint drying. Good god was that show dull most of the time.

What they are saying is the first casualties of this strike will most likely be the new shows that came out in the Fall... they weren't given a fair chance to get any traction and will probably just be canned by the networks.

[Lox]

What they are saying is the first casualties of this strike will most likely be the new shows that came out in the Fall... they weren't given a fair chance to get any traction and will probably just be canned by the networks.

That would suck, because there were a few really enjoyable shows. I loved Chuck, Journeyman, and Pushing Daisies, for starters.

I found this site:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com ... u-fav.html

Looks like Chuck and Pushing Daisies are returning in the fall, but Journeyman got axed. Argh. That makes me really mad.

[Chris]

Fixed.

Too easy.

when did I get involved?


I've got a lot of friends in the hollywood writing community.

Are they WGA members and what shows/movies have they written?

Yes. law and Order SVU, House, All the good superhero animated series, Lost, Heroes, BayFormers, Numbers, I could go on. Delayed answer yes. but the fact is.....all of you both pro and anti WGA are not close in analysis.

[Chris]

What they are saying is the first casualties of this strike will most likely be the new shows that came out in the Fall... they weren't given a fair chance to get any traction and will probably just be canned by the networks.

That would suck, because there were a few really enjoyable shows. I loved Chuck, Journeyman, and Pushing Daisies, for starters.

I found this site:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com ... u-fav.html

Looks like Chuck and Pushing Daisies are returning in the fall, but Journeyman got axed. Argh. That makes me really mad.

I really wish journeyman had had a better start as the first couple eps were kinda blah before it hooked me and just progressively got better and better and better. by the end it was my favorite show of the year. (just surpassing the suprises that were Pushing Daisies and Burn Notice

[Zeus]

And everyone wins except the consumer, as usual. If you're lucky your shows will be back by September. 24 is slated for January now apparently, probably killing the series.

Why? We've waited this long for BSG, so you fuckers can wait for your precious 24.

I actually care little about 24, I was just using it as an example. I used to watch BSG, then I found more entertaining things to watch for an hour-- like paint drying. Good god was that show dull most of the time.

What they are saying is the first casualties of this strike will most likely be the new shows that came out in the Fall... they weren't given a fair chance to get any traction and will probably just be canned by the networks.

Apparently Terminator is on the bubble now too....

At least we get some more 30 Rock eps this year. Earl too.

[Chris]

Why? We've waited this long for BSG, so you fuckers can wait for your precious 24.

I actually care little about 24, I was just using it as an example. I used to watch BSG, then I found more entertaining things to watch for an hour-- like paint drying. Good god was that show dull most of the time.

What they are saying is the first casualties of this strike will most likely be the new shows that came out in the Fall... they weren't given a fair chance to get any traction and will probably just be canned by the networks.

Apparently Terminator is on the bubble now too....

At least we get some more 30 Rock eps this year. Earl too.

I'm just pissed off they renewed that insulting tripe that is The Big Bang Theory. good lord that show pisses me off

[Zeus]

when did I get involved?


I've got a lot of friends in the hollywood writing community.

Are they WGA members and what shows/movies have they written?

Yes. law and Order SVU, House, All the good superhero animated series, Lost, Heroes, BayFormers, Numbers, I could go on. Delayed answer yes. but the fact is.....all of you both pro and anti WGA are not close in analysis.

So enlighten us. I'd love to know the real story

[SineSwiper]

I actually care little about 24, I was just using it as an example. I used to watch BSG, then I found more entertaining things to watch for an hour-- like paint drying. Good god was that show dull most of the time.

Fucking take it back, man! It's the best sci-fi show out there right now. Or I guess you're confused by its big words or something.

[Zeus]

I actually care little about 24, I was just using it as an example. I used to watch BSG, then I found more entertaining things to watch for an hour-- like paint drying. Good god was that show dull most of the time.

Fucking take it back, man! It's the best sci-fi show out there right now. Or I guess you're confused by its big words or something.

You have to admit, the third season dragged quite a bit

[Ishamael]

I've got a lot of friends in the hollywood writing community.

Are they WGA members and what shows/movies have they written?

but the fact is.....all of you both pro and anti WGA are not close in analysis.

This strike is different from every other organized labor strike in the history of planet earth?

[bovine]

I actually care little about 24, I was just using it as an example. I used to watch BSG, then I found more entertaining things to watch for an hour-- like paint drying. Good god was that show dull most of the time.

Fucking take it back, man! It's the best sci-fi show out there right now. Or I guess you're confused by its big words or something.

You have to admit, the third season dragged quite a bit

I'm with Zeus here, I stopped watching at the third season as well.

[Zeus]

Fucking take it back, man! It's the best sci-fi show out there right now. Or I guess you're confused by its big words or something.

You have to admit, the third season dragged quite a bit

I'm with Zeus here, I stopped watching at the third season as well.

I never stopped watching, but it was a bit of a struggle to finish it. Last ep was pretty decent but eps about 8 to 19 were slow. It's almost like they were just doing filler 'til they got to the end, like they had a beginning and end but no middle.

The movie was pretty slow too. Not bad but not really necessary either.