Aww geesh, not this shit again...

[Blotus]

GTA isn't aimed at hardcore gamers, it is aimed at mainstream gamers. Hardcore gamer is just a polite word for power-nerd nowadays; you know, the kinds that like shooting games, blood, techno music, and heavy metal.

This quote is so full of fail that I don't even know where to start.

I've been trying to tune these kinds of posts out since he claimed Goldeneye was a more revolutionary shooter than Doom.

[SineSwiper]

Well, if you live in a basement surrounded by Nintendo consoles and posters, I guess GoldenEye would be the more revolutionary shooter, since Doom 64 wasn't revolutionary at all. It's all a matter of filtering yourself out every other console & PCs. I bet he's even using the Wii browser to post messages.

[Julius Seeker]

GTA isn't aimed at hardcore gamers, it is aimed at mainstream gamers. Hardcore gamer is just a polite word for power-nerd nowadays; you know, the kinds that like shooting games, blood, techno music, and heavy metal.

This quote is so full of fail that I don't even know where to start.

I've been trying to tune these kinds of posts out since he claimed Goldeneye was a more revolutionary shooter than Doom.

Goldeneye, to name off some of the obvious:

-established shooters as a mainstream genre
-established the genre on Consoles
-Brought in advanced tactical gameplay FAR exceeding anything seen in the past (zooming, target areas)
-AI far more advanced than anything else to date: soldiers would call other soldiers to go after you, you had to be stealthy in order to avoid this.
-Advanced mission objectives
-Heavily popular multiplayer options which vastly exceeded anything else in gaming history to that point.

[Julius Seeker]

Well, if you live in a basement.

If you live in a basement, you're more likely a Doom fan.

[Zeus]

GTA isn't aimed at hardcore gamers, it is aimed at mainstream gamers. Hardcore gamer is just a polite word for power-nerd nowadays; you know, the kinds that like shooting games, blood, techno music, and heavy metal.

This quote is so full of fail that I don't even know where to start.

I've been trying to tune these kinds of posts out since he claimed Goldeneye was a more revolutionary shooter than Doom.

As revolutionary as Goldeneye was, there wouldn't even be an FPS genre without Doom....period

[Julius Seeker]

As revolutionary as Goldeneye was, there wouldn't even be an FPS genre without Doom....period

You do realize that Wolfenstein 3D was actually released before Doom, right?

[Kupek]

And Alone in the Dark predates Resident Evil, but RE is the defining game of the survival horror genre.

[Zeus]

As revolutionary as Goldeneye was, there wouldn't even be an FPS genre without Doom....period

You do realize that Wolfenstein 3D was actually released before Doom, right?

No, not at all. When I was finished playing Wolfenstein 3D and then Doom came out, I said to myself "what the fuck was I doin' playing the second FPS to ever come out before the first?".

(BTW, I never liked Doom, I thought it was a boring game and not nearly as good as Wolfenstein 3D).

The issue here is revolution not release date. Being first doesn't make you the most important. FF7 is a revolutionary RPG and even you couldn't argue that it was the first one to come out. Goldeneye also wasn't the first FPS on consoles but it sure as hell was the first important one, which made it revolutionary.

[Julius Seeker]

And Alone in the Dark predates Resident Evil, but RE is the defining game of the survival horror genre.

The Resident Evil series has vastly outsold anything else in the survival and horror genre.

[Julius Seeker]

As revolutionary as Goldeneye was, there wouldn't even be an FPS genre without Doom....period

You do realize that Wolfenstein 3D was actually released before Doom, right?

No, not at all. When I was finished playing Wolfenstein 3D and then Doom came out, I said to myself "what the fuck was I doin' playing the second FPS to ever come out before the first?".

(BTW, I never liked Doom, I thought it was a boring game and not nearly as good as Wolfenstein 3D).

The issue here is revolution not release date. Being first doesn't make you the most important. FF7 is a revolutionary RPG and even you couldn't argue that it was the first one to come out. Goldeneye also wasn't the first FPS on consoles but it sure as hell was the first important one, which made it revolutionary.

How did Doom revolutionize the genre more than Goldeneye?

[Zeus]

You do realize that Wolfenstein 3D was actually released before Doom, right?

No, not at all. When I was finished playing Wolfenstein 3D and then Doom came out, I said to myself "what the fuck was I doin' playing the second FPS to ever come out before the first?".

(BTW, I never liked Doom, I thought it was a boring game and not nearly as good as Wolfenstein 3D).

The issue here is revolution not release date. Being first doesn't make you the most important. FF7 is a revolutionary RPG and even you couldn't argue that it was the first one to come out. Goldeneye also wasn't the first FPS on consoles but it sure as hell was the first important one, which made it revolutionary.

How did Doom revolutionize the genre more than Goldeneye?

You can't be serious..........fine, I'll humour you even though it'll be the equivalent of me banging my head against a wall:

1) It invented steps/different planes within the levels. If you remember Wolfenstein, it was only on one plane the whole time, it's not like you had floating enemies or anything. Sounds so rudimentary but it all started with Doom

2) It invented the FPS multiplayer system. The same one that basically in use today

3) It took network gaming from being a bunch of sour-milk smelling lads to being a phenomenon across the country even before the internet was invented. It was the game that mad networking your computers together something other than for super-nerds

Everything you take for granted in the genre other than the first-person view (was Wizardy the first game with any release level that did that?) started with Doom. It started the building blocks for the FPS genre as we know it now. Look at what Call of Duty 4 of Halo 3 offer and it's just more of what was in Doom.

Doom IMO is one of the top 5 influential games of all time....and I didn't like it. To this day I would still prefer to play Wolfenstein 3D.

Goldeneye is one of my fav games of all time and was revolutionary in two ways:

1) Making missions within the levels (as opposed to just making it to the end of the level) a big thing

2) Making the FPS genre (single- and multi-player) relevant on the consoles. Look at how huge it is now, it's starting to outclass PCs in that genre

But there wouldn't be a Goldeneye without Doom. You can essentially trace the relevance of the FPS genre to it. Without Doom (and then Doom 2 and Quake) the FPS genre probably would just be a niche genre. In the same way that FF7 grew the RPG genre from a very small to a rather large niche genre (at least in the US).

BTW, what is it with poor games being so revolutionary? :-)

[SineSwiper]

3) It took network gaming from being a bunch of sour-milk smelling lads to being a phenomenon across the country even before the internet was invented. It was the game that mad networking your computers together something other than for super-nerds

Yeah, I remember being in high school computer class (which was just FPS class really), and people owned null modem cables without actually knowing what the hell they did, except that it would allow them to play Doom on multi player.

But there wouldn't be a Goldeneye without Doom. You can essentially trace the relevance of the FPS genre to it. Without Doom (and then Doom 2 and Quake) the FPS genre probably would just be a niche genre. In the same way that FF7 grew the RPG genre from a very small to a rather large niche genre (at least in the US).

BTW, what is it with poor games being so revolutionary? :-)

I would take that one step further and say that Doom was to 2D FPSs as Quake was to 3D FPSs. Quake was the backbone of how the new graphics format was set up. Not to mention that it was the first popular one with Internet play. Quakeworld was a whole new experience in FPS gaming, from the massive 16-player deathmatches to the clans that formed out of it to the custom skins and mods for the game.

Then Half-Life came out. Another pivotal milestone in FPSs. It changed FPSs from simply being a multiplayer shooter to being a single-player experience, complete with a rich storyline and puzzle solving. Nothing looked like a map or a level, but it was more like trying to explore your way out of a problem, wandering around until you get to a new area. (To this day, I don't think I can think of another series that does map design this well.)

So, yes, GoldenEye was pivotal to the console market, but it never would have happened without Doom, Quake, or Half Life. Metroid Prime never would have happened without the previous 4. (Nintendo would have never made a FPS on a console without GE, so I'll give GE credit for that.)

And I happen to like Doom, Quake, and Half Life, so it's not like they were really poor games. It's just that sometimes the most popular game isn't the best.

[Zeus]

Sine, Goldeneye came out first so I would say that it was pivotal if revolutionizing the single-player experience of FPSs since it was much more storyline and mission based than anything before it. Half-Life definitely took it to another level but Goldeneye started it. I remember it being the first FPS that I played that wasn't just a mindless "get to the end of the level" gameplay, which is what I disliked about both Quake and Doom.

EDIT:
Release dates:

Goldeneye: Aug 25, 1997

http://ign64.ign.com/articles/151/151991p1.html

Half-Life: Nov 18, 1998

http://pc.ign.com/articles/153/153107p1.html[/u]

[Tessian]

Goldeneye didn't start massive gaming (4+ players), that was on PC wayy before that. Quake at the least, also games like Tribes.

I would also argue, Sine, that Quake in itself wasn't really revolutionary or notable too much, but the games engine it was built on was.

But yeah, Seek this is like claiming the Mustang was the most revolutionary car invented and ignoring the Model T.

[SineSwiper]

Hmmm...Goldeneye may have being first, but the release dates are so close to each other that I don't think that they influenced each other. (Yes, a year is close in game development terms.) Also, Half-Life just plain won more awards, mostly due to its rich story.

So, it's more like Goldeneye did the same thing on the console world that Half-Life did in the PC world.

EDIT: Also, I would add that Duke Nukem 3D could have also been influence to GoldenEye. It was unique in that weapons and items in that game were more strategic than just "this weapon is better than this one".

[SineSwiper]

Goldeneye didn't start massive gaming (4+ players), that was on PC wayy before that. Quake at the least, also games like Tribes.

I would also argue, Sine, that Quake in itself wasn't really revolutionary or notable too much, but the games engine it was built on was.

Nah, it was Quake itself and the ability to play online. It was like night and day. Before Quake, you had to directly connect via 56K modem to one other person, or use null modem cables if you wanted 3 or 4 people. After Quake, multiplayer "fragging" just exploded. You could go to any server and play anywhere in the world with 15 strangers.

That type of experience was completely unique. And really, it's hard to separate the game from the game engine. Back then, 80% of the game WAS the game engine, and they just made maps and characters from that.

[Julius Seeker]

Goldeneye didn't start massive gaming (4+ players), that was on PC wayy before that. Quake at the least, also games like Tribes.

I would also argue, Sine, that Quake in itself wasn't really revolutionary or notable too much, but the games engine it was built on was.

But yeah, Seek this is like claiming the Mustang was the most revolutionary car invented and ignoring the Model T.

Well, I don't really think Doom is nearly as great or revolutionary as some people seem to think. Wolfenstein was Id's original FPS title (well their first notable one at least). Doom added a little to the formula, as did Id's later titles (Doom was more or less the #2 in a series of games advancing on a concept), but Goldeneye added heaps more than any of those games did at any point, it was a significant leap over everything in the past, and everyone followed what Goldeneye did.


Sine, for the record, 16 player multiplayer was actually around by the mid-late the 80's, long before Quake.

[Anarky]

Can we simply say ID was the foundation of every FPS we play today? Carmack is constantly building new engines and changing the way in which we've played games. ID never made the best games, but they damn sure pushed the envelope.

Goldeneye was a good game, and I logged many hours in it... but come on... computers have always done FPS better. So it had missions and some clever AI for the time, but it was a logical step in the genre. ID made a genre, and you really can't argue about that

[Zeus]

Anarky, I agree completely. I was just trying to prove to Seek that even though both us like Wolfenstein more than Doom, Doom was by far the more influential game. It's not a matter of personal opinion it's history. How foolish of me to think that argument would work.

Sine, even if development is often 2 years or so for FPSs, Goldeneye was released 15-months before Half-Life. More than enough to have an influence.....but not that I'm saying it did. Half-Life showed what really could be done with storylines in an FPS, something that was largly ignored by ID. That and the Counterstrike multiplayer evolution is the real influence of Half Life. No doubt it's very influential but in a different way.

But at the end of the day, the relevance of mission-based single-player modes (even on PCs) and console multiplayer FPSs can be traced back to Goldeneye. Considering the relevance Halo had to the success of the Xbox and related importance of FPSs in today's console marketplace (Microsoft lives and dies by their FPSs), you really can't play down the importance of Goldeneye. Definitely one of the most influential console games of all time.

[Zeus]

Sine, for the record, 16 player multiplayer was actually around by the mid-late the 80's, long before Quake.

Maybe, but again, it doesn't matter what came first. It's what was more relevant that makes it revolutionary. Just because you do something don't mean you do it well. If people don't care there's no influence and influence is essential for revolution.

Quake was the game that made internet multiplayer, no doubt.

[Tessian]

Well, I don't really think Doom is nearly as great or revolutionary as some people seem to think. Wolfenstein was Id's original FPS title (well their first notable one at least). Doom added a little to the formula, as did Id's later titles (Doom was more or less the #2 in a series of games advancing on a concept),

You're kidding me, right? Did you even read Zeus's post about how Doom changed everything with regard to FPS? If anything Wolfenstein was to FPS what Dune was to RTS; it was the first but what was much more important was the game it spawned. Wolfenstein beget Doom; Dune beget Command & Conquer. Wolf and Dune get recognition for being the first of the genre but not much else... Doom & C&C are recognized and remembered as the games that made the genre popular and real. I'd consider Wolf and Dune more like proof of concept games than anything.

That being said, Doom beget the FPS genre and it set the stage for all games of that type to come. There's no way you can claim that any other game was more important to the genre-- the simple fact that if it never came about we wouldn't HAVE FPS games allows it to trump any achievement another game after it has done.

[SineSwiper]

Ahem, Starcraft (and to some extent, Warcraft).

[Julius Seeker]

Well, I don't really think Doom is nearly as great or revolutionary as some people seem to think. Wolfenstein was Id's original FPS title (well their first notable one at least). Doom added a little to the formula, as did Id's later titles (Doom was more or less the #2 in a series of games advancing on a concept),

You're kidding me, right? Did you even read Zeus's post about how Doom changed everything with regard to FPS? If anything Wolfenstein was to FPS what Dune was to RTS; it was the first but what was much more important was the game it spawned. Wolfenstein beget Doom; Dune beget Command & Conquer. Wolf and Dune get recognition for being the first of the genre but not much else... Doom & C&C are recognized and remembered as the games that made the genre popular and real. I'd consider Wolf and Dune more like proof of concept games than anything.

That being said, Doom beget the FPS genre and it set the stage for all games of that type to come. There's no way you can claim that any other game was more important to the genre-- the simple fact that if it never came about we wouldn't HAVE FPS games allows it to trump any achievement another game after it has done.

I disagree, the things that Zeus mentioned had already been done in other genres and therefore would have been inevitable within the First Person Shooting genre. What Goldeneye did had not yet been done in other genres. It brought an enormous amount to not only the FPS genre, but the action genre in general. In addition, it also brought the genre to the mainstream.

I also agree with Sine, I would say it was the Blizzard titles that really kicked off the RTS genre, not Command and Conquer. Starcraft is one of the highest selling PC titles of all time at 9.5 million. While the genre was around before Starcraft, it was not until Starcraft that it became mainstream.

Starcraft and Halflife were the games that popularized online play.

[SineSwiper]

Seeker, just fucking give up! You are outclassed and outeducated in this subject. We're right, you're wrong, and we've proven you're wrong. GoldenEye did not re-invent FPSs the way we know it; it merely announced to other publishers that FPSs on a console was possible and can be popular. Though, I would argue that Halo had more of an effect on that than GoldenEye.

Jesus fucking Christ, I'm tired of talking to a motherfucking brick wall!

[Julius Seeker]

Seeker, just fucking give up! You are outclassed and outeducated in this subject. We're right, you're wrong, and we've proven you're wrong. GoldenEye did not re-invent FPSs the way we know it; it merely announced to other publishers that FPSs on a console was possible and can be popular. Though, I would argue that Halo had more of an effect on that than GoldenEye.

Jesus fucking Christ, I'm tired of talking to a motherfucking brick wall!

You thought Halflife came out before Goldeneye. You also claimed Quake invented 16 player multiplayer, which is also false. You have not really argued anything yourself. Do not claim to know more than I do on the subject; actually, don't even claim to even have a notable deal of knowledge at all on the subject, it is plainly obvious you do not.

[Zeus]

Though, I would argue that Halo had more of an effect on that than GoldenEye.

Jesus fucking Christ, I'm tired of talking to a motherfucking brick wall!

Umm, no. Goldeneye is to Halo what Doom was to Quake. The sheer popularity for Goldeneye (it exceeded 6 million copies worldwide if memory serves me right) paved the way for games like Halo to even come out and be successful on consoles.

The only thing Halo brought to the table that none before it really had was real online (Goldeneye did local) multiplayer on a console...that's it. What's in Halo can be traced back to Doom, Half Life and Goldeneye it actually didn't do nothing new. Goldeneye was much more influential than Halo for games. Halo was important as heck for Microsoft and Xbox Live not for actual in game stuff.

And yeah, it is like talking to a brick wall, he completely refuses to believe that what's in his head may actually be wrong regardless of the mountain of evidence otherwise.

[Julius Seeker]

Half Life and Goldeneye it actually didn't do nothing new.

-established shooters as a mainstream genre
-established the genre on Consoles
-Brought in advanced tactical gameplay FAR exceeding anything seen in the past (zooming, target areas)
-AI far more advanced than anything else to date: soldiers would call other soldiers to go after you, you had to be stealthy in order to avoid this.
-Advanced mission objectives
-Heavily popular multiplayer options which vastly exceeded anything else in gaming history to that point.

This stuff, and more, which exists in all future FPS titles can be traced back to Goldeneye, but not any of the shooters before it, let alone Doom.

mountain of evidence otherwise.

You posted very little evidence, let alone a mountain. Also, what you did post was not done in Doom first. You might as well have said Doom was revolutionary because it was the first FPS to have a shotgun, or to take place on Mars.

[Zeus]

OK, Seek, you've finally convinced me: there's zero reason to ever attempt to try to convince you of anything....EVER. You have proven over and over again that you're:

- not willing to actually read what other people wrote
- gonna ignore any argument that goes against what you may think
- gonna not even pay attention to any evidence contrary to your beliefs that may be presented, either in the form of a link or argument

In case you think otherwise, the very last paragraph you wrote above proves you haven't actually listened to a single word I've written (that's just the latest example; nearly every retort you've had in this thread proves you haven't even considered the arguments or evidence presented by others).

I've said it maybe 8 times in this thread now: first does NOT equal revolutionary. It can and has in many cases, but it isn't a direct correlation. This shows that you're using the same freakin' argument you have since the very beginning of this thread proving you're just setting aside any argument/evidence provided otherwise.

I promise, I'll no longer waste my time trying to argue with you or maybe pass along some of the stuff I've come across. There's really no use, I'll have more success trying to convince the rest of the guys here that my taste in movies is actually very, very good.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Flip]

Welcome to the club. While i'll still yell at him every so often when something he says is completely absurd, you stand a better chance convincing a squirrel its a bird then changing Seeks mind. IMO, stubbornness to that degree is probably the least most likable quality one can have.

[Kupek]

I came to that conclusion years ago.

[Zeus]

Welcome to the club. While i'll still yell at him every so often when something he says is completely absurd, you stand a better chance convincing a squirrel its a bird then changing Seeks mind. IMO, stubbornness to that degree is probably the least most likable quality one can have.

But on the surface, he appears to be an intelligent, open-minded person, biases notwithstanding. Until now I couldn't fully accept the fact that someone who can put together pretty decent arguments often using facts as support can be so ridiculously close-minded and stubborn when it comes to his beliefs. I have seen this in real life but I was holding out hope Seek wasn't like that. No more, though

[Julius Seeker]

OK, Seek, you've finally convinced me: there's zero reason to ever attempt to try to convince you of anything....EVER. You have proven over and over again that you're:

- not willing to actually read what other people wrote
- gonna ignore any argument that goes against what you may think
- gonna not even pay attention to any evidence contrary to your beliefs that may be presented, either in the form of a link or argument

In case you think otherwise, the very last paragraph you wrote above proves you haven't actually listened to a single word I've written (that's just the latest example; nearly every retort you've had in this thread proves you haven't even considered the arguments or evidence presented by others).

I've said it maybe 8 times in this thread now: first does NOT equal revolutionary. It can and has in many cases, but it isn't a direct correlation. This shows that you're using the same freakin' argument you have since the very beginning of this thread proving you're just setting aside any argument/evidence provided otherwise.

I promise, I'll no longer waste my time trying to argue with you or maybe pass along some of the stuff I've come across. There's really no use, I'll have more success trying to convince the rest of the guys here that my taste in movies is actually very, very good.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Actually, you're right, I completely fucked up my last post. Sorry dude; I seriously owe you an apology on that one =P

[SineSwiper]

I think it's a bit late, Seeker...

[Julius Seeker]

I think it's a bit late, Seeker...

I think Zeus is old enough to make his own decisions without you stealing bad lines from bad teen romance films, SineSwiper...

[Zeus]

I think it's a bit late, Seeker...

I think Zeus is old enough to make his own decisions without you stealing bad lines from bad teen romance films, SineSwiper...

Sine was right. If it was one or two posts then yes, you could say "I fucked up" and it would be understandable. Hell, I regularly make mistakes where I misread someone's post or don't get what they're saying and argue something ridiculous. It just happens especially if you're at work and are sometimes rushing to read the post.

But when it's about 15 posts in, there really is no "or, I'm sorry, I messed up there". Particularly when the post you were referring to was basically a regurgitation of your previous 6 posts in the same thread.

[Julius Seeker]

I think it's a bit late, Seeker...

I think Zeus is old enough to make his own decisions without you stealing bad lines from bad teen romance films, SineSwiper...

Sine was right. If it was one or two posts then yes, you could say "I fucked up" and it would be understandable. Hell, I regularly make mistakes where I misread someone's post or don't get what they're saying and argue something ridiculous. It just happens especially if you're at work and are sometimes rushing to read the post.

But when it's about 15 posts in, there really is no "or, I'm sorry, I messed up there". Particularly when the post you were referring to was basically a regurgitation of your previous 6 posts in the same thread.

Well I am only concerned about my post immediately preceding my apology. I stand by my other posts, and despite what you are claiming with these so called "mountains of evidence, with links" . I only see four points, and they were either weak or incorrect:

there wouldn't even be an FPS genre without Doom....period

The existence of Wolfenstein already disqualifies this point; in other words, it was completely incorrect. Yet you tried to spin it by saying that "the issue is revolution, not release date" which is not even relevant to the point I was arguing against; it was you just trying to deflect your mistake without owning up to it.

1) It invented steps/different planes within the levels. If you remember Wolfenstein, it was only on one plane the whole time, it's not like you had floating enemies or anything. Sounds so rudimentary but it all started with Doom

Again with this one, obviously this isn't a revolutionary step as it did not invent steps or planes within levels, these things were already commonplace in other genres already. It was only an inevitability that they would be incorporated into first person shooters. It's about as relevant as a shotgun being introduced into FPS titles, someone would have done it soon anyway.

2) It invented the FPS multiplayer system. The same one that basically in use today

This is another incorrect point, because the first FPS multiplayer game was Midimaze released in 1987. It featured 16 player multiplayer.

3) It took network gaming from being a bunch of sour-milk smelling lads to being a phenomenon across the country even before the internet was invented. It was the game that mad networking your computers together something other than for super-nerds

This is a HUGE overstatement. When the Shrine started up, online/networked multiplayer games were still in their infancy, however The Blizzard <a>Battlenet soon changed all of that</a>. It is not like I should even have to mention this, it is common knowledge, we all mostly took part in that revolution as a group here.

Just because a few nerds and trenchcoat clad murderers seem to think Doom was one of the most revolutionary games ever does not make it so. Their opinions are heavily biased and extremely narrow minded ignoring what came before and what came after.

[Zeus]

(gone)