E3's still got it.

[Eric]

I was a bit worried about E3 a few years ago when so many companies pulled out of it, but this year's E3 has been pretty nice. Lots of big announcements, great looking games. Booth Babes(Ahem). Happy to see it didn't die out like I thought it would.

[SineSwiper]

Yeah, what the hell was that news all about 3-4 years ago? Was that just idiotic FUD or what?

[Zeus]

The industry is still hugely lacking in the most important aspect of a trade show: direct consumer interaction. E3 was getting there pretty well with its lax registration policies, but even that wasn't enough. They should have expanded it rather than destroyed it.

Now all we can do is sit back and be jealous while watching as the media oogles over the stuff we'd all kill to get our hands on. Idiotic, they industry is missing out on a HUGE marketing opportunity and the only true direct feedback they can get. Fraxis gets this, they went to EforAll for that very reason. But the other companies are completely missing the boat IMO.

And trust me, it works. Go there and start looking at some of the not so over-hyped games, the ones that make up 75% of what's there. You may find certain games there that you'd love but get lost in the shuffle. DK Jungle Beat, Ribbit King, Odama, Rome: Total War (I hate RTSs)...I bought these games 'cause I got to try them at E3. Even the GC and the flooring when I saw Rogue Squadron 2 for the first time. There were also others I completely avoid 'cause of just how much they sucke (hello, Mario Pinball Land) but that comes with the territory.

[RentCavalier]

That outlook is short-sighted. E3 had stopped becoming a trade show and had started to become a literal show--a show where the bigger lights and the best sounds guaranteed your game was noticed, with smaller, poorer developers swallowed up by the surge of booth babes, booze and blinking bright lights.

E3 should be smaller, and it has become smaller--making a big show out of it may have been fun for those of us who could visit, but you talk about consumer interaction...there IS no consumer interaction. Its for game journalists anyway, and we, the consumers, never got to play the gmaes at E3 anyway, the journalists did. The show was superfluous, unneccessary, and it was hurting the smaller game developers. I'm, frankly, glad they dumbed it down. If it starts returning to the decadence of yesteryear, I'm not sure what that's going to mean for the industry on whole, but I can bet you it won't be all that great.

[Julius Seeker]

E3 press conferences according to Penny Arcade

[RentCavalier]

All this optimism about Sony seems to be pretty ill-placed. Penny Arcade makes a valid point--We're STILL waiting for Sony to wow us, but how much time do they have? Almost all of their games are also on the 360, and additionally, they have only ONE exclusive (MGS4) that's really great--and that's hardly enough to warrant the system. Blu-Ray doesn't seem to be catching on that fast, and we just keep waiting and waiting...but what are we waiting for?

[Zeus]

That outlook is short-sighted. E3 had stopped becoming a trade show and had started to become a literal show--a show where the bigger lights and the best sounds guaranteed your game was noticed, with smaller, poorer developers swallowed up by the surge of booth babes, booze and blinking bright lights.

E3 should be smaller, and it has become smaller--making a big show out of it may have been fun for those of us who could visit, but you talk about consumer interaction...there IS no consumer interaction. Its for game journalists anyway, and we, the consumers, never got to play the gmaes at E3 anyway, the journalists did. The show was superfluous, unneccessary, and it was hurting the smaller game developers. I'm, frankly, glad they dumbed it down. If it starts returning to the decadence of yesteryear, I'm not sure what that's going to mean for the industry on whole, but I can bet you it won't be all that great.

Whether it's the current E3 or not, what the industry needs is more of what used to be E3, fully open to the public

[Tessian]

All this optimism about Sony seems to be pretty ill-placed. Penny Arcade makes a valid point--We're STILL waiting for Sony to wow us, but how much time do they have? Almost all of their games are also on the 360, and additionally, they have only ONE exclusive (MGS4) that's really great--and that's hardly enough to warrant the system. Blu-Ray doesn't seem to be catching on that fast, and we just keep waiting and waiting...but what are we waiting for?

Sony not only has failed to wow us, but they've out right lied about things. First the rumble feature was a thing of the past and childish (back when they couldn't work out royalties with the patent owner) and now it's all "Look we have rumble!! Buy new controllers!." SIXAXIS, as far as I've seen, is a total failure-- Lair proved that. Home is still nothing but "please wait for us, it'll be great we promise!" and they've switched between so many versions of their consoles already it's ridiculous. They're the only console to date that has been REMOVING features in new hardware.

Sony seems to have the attitude "You should buy the PS3 because we're Sony. Listen to every word we say and forget anything contradictory from the past" -- fuck you Sony

[Zeus]

Sony seems to have the attitude "You should buy the PS3 because we're Sony. Listen to every word we say and forget anything contradictory from the past" -- fuck you Sony

They've always been like that

[Tessian]

Sony seems to have the attitude "You should buy the PS3 because we're Sony. Listen to every word we say and forget anything contradictory from the past" -- fuck you Sony

They've always been like that

And you don't care? You still want to purchase their products when they treat their customers like that? Say what you will about Microsoft, but at least they treat their customers much better than this.

[Julius Seeker]

Sony should have announced some details on a new handheld system. Instead they announced that certain games shown before for the PSP don't actually exist (Valkyria Chronicles).


So here we are a year and a half later, and the question is still present, could the PS3 be the largest failure since Atari? Even if it sells 30 million they're still losing 70% of their market.

[Blotus]

Why would they need to announce a new PSP when it's the biggest-selling platform this year so far in Japan? If Capcom can crank out a couple more Monster Hunter games, that thing can have legs for at least a couple more years.

In Japan, anyway.

[Julius Seeker]

Why would they need to announce a new PSP when it's the biggest-selling platform this year so far in Japan? If Capcom can crank out a couple more Monster Hunter games, that thing can have legs for at least a couple more years.

In Japan, anyway.

Monster Hunter moved to Wii. I was expecting something from both Sony and Nintendo on future handheld systems, but you're right, they're probably selling too well to consider announcements on successors yet.

[Blotus]

[Julius Seeker]

So Black Lotus, I didn't realize you enjoyed looking up gay anime, even despite your name.

[Zeus]

Sony seems to have the attitude "You should buy the PS3 because we're Sony. Listen to every word we say and forget anything contradictory from the past" -- fuck you Sony

They've always been like that

And you don't care? You still want to purchase their products when they treat their customers like that? Say what you will about Microsoft, but at least they treat their customers much better than this.

How, by forcing them to pay to play half of the game they paid full price for?

There's something about all of these companies you can bitch about. Every large company in existence treats its customers like a number. Personally, I only purchase when it's worth my coin. In the PS3s case, I'll be getting a used one unless I am able to do what I did with the 360 and get a new one at 40% of the cost a year after release. If that's the case, my money don't go to Sony anyways. Even if it does with games, I'm only purchasing the games I want not really caring what system it's for.

I'm buying a product, not a service. If the product is worth the coin to me, I get it. When it comes to a service, how I'm treated will determine whether or not I continue to pay for that service. Like how I dumped Rogers like a bad habit once they decided they wanted to try to fuck me deeper in the ass than they have been for years and I finally had a real choice. They can have any attitude they want, until they prove to me it's worth it, I ain't buyin' their shit.

[Zeus]

Why would they need to announce a new PSP when it's the biggest-selling platform this year so far in Japan? If Capcom can crank out a couple more Monster Hunter games, that thing can have legs for at least a couple more years.

In Japan, anyway.

Monster Hunter moved to Wii. I was expecting something from both Sony and Nintendo on future handheld systems, but you're right, they're probably selling too well to consider announcements on successors yet.

They think the PSP is just hitting its stride now. There's no way they'd risk cannabilizing the success

[Blotus]

So Black Lotus, I didn't realize you enjoyed looking up gay anime, even despite your name.

Edgeworth sent it to me and instructed me to post it here, so you'd know he's already taken.

[Julius Seeker]

So Black Lotus, I didn't realize you enjoyed looking up gay anime, even despite your name.

Edgeworth sent it to me and instructed me to post it here, so you'd know he's already taken.

So you not only look up gay anime, but you seem to enjoy roleplaying gay versions of Phoenix Wright characters as well.

[RentCavalier]

Why is it that the most hardcore fans of anime spend their time taking their favorite characters and making them sodomize each other?

I think, from a psychological standpoint, this is a phenomenon that warrants research.

[Julius Seeker]

Why is it that the most hardcore fans of anime spend their time taking their favorite characters and making them sodomize each other?

I think, from a psychological standpoint, this is a phenomenon that warrants research.

It's because people like BL like to look at them. Or perhaps BL drew that one.

[Eric]

Why is it that the most hardcore fans of anime spend their time taking their favorite characters and making them sodomize each other?

I think, from a psychological standpoint, this is a phenomenon that warrants research.

Yaoi, or boy on boy love is designed for female audiences, so that they can look at pretty boys fall in love, and not be jealous of the girl in the relationship...err because there is no girl.

At least that's how it's been explained to me.

[RentCavalier]

Why is it that the most hardcore fans of anime spend their time taking their favorite characters and making them sodomize each other?

I think, from a psychological standpoint, this is a phenomenon that warrants research.

Yaoi, or boy on boy love is designed for female audiences, so that they can look at pretty boys fall in love, and not be jealous of the girl in the relationship...err because there is no girl.

At least that's how it's been explained to me.

See, I call those women "pathetic escapists" who get so swept up into their fantasy worlds that they can't cope in the real world.

And trust me, I know--the last three women I dated in high school were anime geeks, and those chicks got ISSUES.

[Blotus]

There are some pretty pathetic anime fans out there... I think yaoi fans are just barely less pathetic than furries.

And Seeker, don't be stupid. I can't draw that well.

[Chris]

Why is it that the most hardcore fans of anime spend their time taking their favorite characters and making them sodomize each other?

I think, from a psychological standpoint, this is a phenomenon that warrants research.

Yaoi, or boy on boy love is designed for female audiences, so that they can look at pretty boys fall in love, and not be jealous of the girl in the relationship...err because there is no girl.

At least that's how it's been explained to me.

See, I call those women "pathetic escapists" who get so swept up into their fantasy worlds that they can't cope in the real world.

And trust me, I know--the last three women I dated in high school were anime geeks, and those chicks got ISSUES.

you would know

[RentCavalier]

Yaoi, or boy on boy love is designed for female audiences, so that they can look at pretty boys fall in love, and not be jealous of the girl in the relationship...err because there is no girl.

At least that's how it's been explained to me.

See, I call those women "pathetic escapists" who get so swept up into their fantasy worlds that they can't cope in the real world.

And trust me, I know--the last three women I dated in high school were anime geeks, and those chicks got ISSUES.

you would know

Probably.

[Zeus]

To bring this thread back to it's original reason for existence:

Pachter believes that E3 is dying a slow death and has become "irrelevant", which is an extension of what I was saying

http://www.edge-online.com/news/pachter ... n%E2%80%9D

[bovine]

Watch as she fails at the game she is trying to tell you to buy.... watch and maybe look at the drums or something afterwards.

[Julius Seeker]

To bring this thread back to it's original reason for existence:

Pachter believes that E3 is dying a slow death and has become "irrelevant", which is an extension of what I was saying

http://www.edge-online.com/news/pachter ... n%E2%80%9D

I think this year hammered that point home. We'll see if GC has bigger announcements than E3.

Overall, E3 is just situated at a poor time of year. The best time to have a trade show like that is between late August and sometime in November. That way games are in very presentable form for the Holiday season schedule.

[SineSwiper]

Overall, E3 is just situated at a poor time of year. The best time to have a trade show like that is between late August and sometime in November. That way games are in very presentable form for the Holiday season schedule.

You would think that people would be ready enough for E3 on their Q3/Q4 stuff at the beginning of Q3. After all, if you aren't beta by July, you really aren't launching by November-December.

[Tessian]

poor timing my ass, even the companies involved are saying E3 sucks ass now. It's a pathetic shadow of what it was and I doubt it'll be around next year if it sticks to the same format. Bring the fans back in, tell us shit we DON'T KNOW already, and bar the creators of Duke Nukem from stepping foot on the showroom floor unless they have a playable demo of their game (good god was that trailer piss poor)

[Zeus]

The problem appears to be twofold:

1) The companies don't want to demo their stuff. The development teams feel squeezed as it is and don't want to take resources away from finishing the game to create a demo. To me, this is one of the most short-sighted mentalities you can imagine. Imagine if Favreau said "I'm too busy finishing Iron Man, I don't have enough time to create a kick-ass trailer to hype it up". If he did that, Iron Man hardly makes $100M instead of over $300M, not to mention the affect the ComiCon trailer had on international sales.

For non super-hyped sequels, you need a demo to get out there, it needs to be a part of the development process. MGS4 didn't need a demo, they just needed to say "Kojima's making this" and people would buy PS3s for it. But games like Too Human, Dead Space, Left 4 Dead, etc., benefit greatly from people getting their hands on a demo since they're not known quantities. I'm not talking about media types, I'm talking about me and you. Too Human's Live demo is great for those of us who connect our systems to the net, but you have to look for it and over half of the 360 owners ain't connected (don't believe the 12M+ Live subscribers; that accounts for anyone who has at any time had a Live account, Silver or Gold, active or not, and there are tons of multiple accounts per system; I'm talking about how many systems are currently connected). That ain't good enough, which is why I keep saying they need a traveling roadshow

2) Now that the companies feel that E3 is dead, they're just starting to reveal stuff as they see fit rather than waiting for the show. We all knew about most of the stuff long before E3, that's why it felt a little lame. The media types and the hardware manufacturers can talk all they want at E3 about the stuff that's there and trying, for themselves, to have it be as significant as it used to be. But the rank and file ain't buyin' it and heck, you're having a lot of companies pull out of the ESA. It really was irrelevant this year. Every other show (GDC, Lepzig, TGS) had something going for it. This little old boys club of a show with only 6,000 attendees meant nothing. Hell, the GDC had triple that many attendees.

Either E3 changes drastically or the companies start supporting another open show like EforAll or the ComiCon to fill in the void.

[SineSwiper]

Geesh, did nobody learn from the shareware days? Demos promote games. Period.

For god's sake, 98% of the people who bought Zone of the Enders bought it for a MGS demo. (Damn shame, too, because they were missing out on a great game.) Same for Brave Fencer.

[Kupek]

Different kind of demos, Sine.

[SineSwiper]

Different kind of demos, Sine.

Oh?

For non super-hyped sequels, you need a demo to get out there, it needs to be a part of the development process. MGS4 didn't need a demo, they just needed to say "Kojima's making this" and people would buy PS3s for it. But games like Too Human, Dead Space, Left 4 Dead, etc., benefit greatly from people getting their hands on a demo since they're not known quantities. I'm not talking about media types, I'm talking about me and you. Too Human's Live demo is great for those of us who connect our systems to the net, but you have to look for it and over half of the 360 owners ain't connected (don't believe the 12M+ Live subscribers; that accounts for anyone who has at any time had a Live account, Silver or Gold, active or not, and there are tons of multiple accounts per system; I'm talking about how many systems are currently connected). That ain't good enough, which is why I keep saying they need a traveling roadshow

[Tessian]

Different kind of demos, Sine.

Oh?

Actually he's right... your above example was an example of a demo for a hughely anticipated game was bundled with a game to make that game sell well. Zeus is talking about demos as a way of increasing sales of the demoed game, not another game.

[Kupek]

Creating a demo to show the press at a tradeshow is different from creating a playable demo for potential customers. Playable demos are on the critical path of development, tradeshow demos are not.

[SineSwiper]

He was talking about both actually. And my example of bundle games just shows how powerful a demo really is. If people will buy a full game just for a demo for a popular game, then a free demo will surely promote a less popular one.

[Zeus]

Creating a demo to show the press at a tradeshow is different from creating a playable demo for potential customers. Playable demos are on the critical path of development, tradeshow demos are not.

What I'm saying is the tradeshow demos should become the playable demos since the tradeshows should be open to the public

But yes, it's not the same at all as the ZoE2 example Sine gave. That's what Square and Konami did to use the demo to try and push a new game. It was actually the opposite of using a demo to promote a new game/hopeful series. They already knew people were going to cream themselves over FF7 or MGS2. Those games don't need demos.

[SineSwiper]

*sigh* You ignored my last post.

[Kupek]

Tradeshow demos often aren't a close enough representation of the finished product to put in the hands of consumers.

[Don]

Why is it that the most hardcore fans of anime spend their time taking their favorite characters and making them sodomize each other?

I think, from a psychological standpoint, this is a phenomenon that warrants research.

Yaoi, or boy on boy love is designed for female audiences, so that they can look at pretty boys fall in love, and not be jealous of the girl in the relationship...err because there is no girl.

At least that's how it's been explained to me.

See, I call those women "pathetic escapists" who get so swept up into their fantasy worlds that they can't cope in the real world.

And trust me, I know--the last three women I dated in high school were anime geeks, and those chicks got ISSUES.

When I was in undergrad the local Anime club had a girl as the president, and she was way scarier than your usual Anime nerds, including the guy who was trying to overthrow the government but ended up settling to become a lawyer.

[Zeus]

Tradeshow demos often aren't a close enough representation of the finished product to put in the hands of consumers.

Which is exactly why the traveling roadshow idea works so well. You have, say, 4 major ones a year in different parts of the country. For ease, we'll choose New York, LA, San Fransisco, and Dallas. That's where they "announce" stuff, where the major shows are held. Demos are created with one level or whatever for playability, kinda like a download level one. In between these "major" ones, they go to smaller cities or to other big places (like, say, Chicago) to strut their stuff. They can even time it so they hit a lot of the big cities (likely in August or September along the east coast for instance) when they're ready to show off the big Xmas titles.

That way, depending on where certain games are in development, they can aim for one of the major ones. Or, if they don't want to get buried, they can even aim to release a demo at one of the non-major ones for a "lesser" title. Is it expensive? Sure, but I think the benefits far outweigh the costs here. Plus, they could actually generate a decent amount of coin from entry fees. You're getting more and more people physically interacting with the games and more and more of a chance to have more and more titles being exposed. It's far better than one big E3 in July where only the press is allowed in.

I just personally think that the industry is extremely short-sighted and missing out on what is the best way to promote the product: get people to fucking play the games. Downloadable ain't good enough, it only reaches a small portion of the population. Having one big show in only one area, even if it's open to the public, ain't good enough. Not enough people can go. This ain't Japan, it ain't a simple train ride from New York to LA. I was lucky enough to go to 2 E3s and trust me, it's by FAR the best way to promote your games. Not just to be able to play the games but also to be around all the hype and soak in the circus like atmosphere. It was awesome.

And some companies get it. There's a reason the San Diego Comic Con is getting big game announcement and demos. Companies know how good it is for them. The ESA needs to step up and give the industry what it needs. Maybe then it'll stop the exodus of companies from leaving. Really, it's a survival requirement for the ESA and they're too stupid to see it