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You sure could have fooled me based on both of your posting histories; especially Sine's of late. If you really didn't care, then I am sure there wouldn't be dozens of posts around defending the Xbox 360 from you guys; but the fact of the matter is that there are.kali o. wrote:That's the really sad part I guess...in your universe, you really believe either Sine or myself actually care whether a given console is "winning", lol.
You just posting sales numbers trying to defend the Xbox 360 in this thread.SineSwiper wrote: I don't need sales figures.
Yes it's too much to ask and no, I won't abide.M'k'n'zy wrote:Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and probally end up pissing off everyone here, but I can't just sit here and be quiet anymore. Am I the only one who thinks this constant bickering is just getting out of control. Am I the only one who remembers the days when people at this place respected the opinions of others, even if they didn't agree with them? I mean yes, there were big arguements, and sometimes threads had to be locked, but this is just getting out of control at this point.
I am saying this not being on anyones side. But if I dont speak up here, this stupidity will just keep going and going. Honestly it probally will even with me speaking up, and to me that is very sad. I know I am not exactly the most frequent poster here out of the long time members, but all this constant fighting is starting to ruin my enjoyment of a community that I have long been proud to be a part of.
I am not trying to say you all have to agree with each others opinions. I see some things here I agree with, some I don't, and some I see on both sides. Am I asking too much to hope, just a small part of me, that we can stop acting like kids? From what I know, the majority of us are adults here. Some of us are married, most have professional carrers, and some of us have even started families. Why don't we try acting like it again.
Like I said, I'm not asking you to just agree with people you don't agree with, and I am not asking you not to argue. All I am asking is that we act like adults and keep things civil. Is that really too much to ask?
I hope not.
I don't know, to me it seems to have gotten worse of late, but you are right in that I didn't frequent ruminations all that much. I was just in kinda a crabby mood last night, and I guess the bickering pushed me over the edge.kali o. wrote:Yes it's too much to ask and no, I won't abide.M'k'n'zy wrote:Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and probally end up pissing off everyone here, but I can't just sit here and be quiet anymore. Am I the only one who thinks this constant bickering is just getting out of control. Am I the only one who remembers the days when people at this place respected the opinions of others, even if they didn't agree with them? I mean yes, there were big arguements, and sometimes threads had to be locked, but this is just getting out of control at this point.
I am saying this not being on anyones side. But if I dont speak up here, this stupidity will just keep going and going. Honestly it probally will even with me speaking up, and to me that is very sad. I know I am not exactly the most frequent poster here out of the long time members, but all this constant fighting is starting to ruin my enjoyment of a community that I have long been proud to be a part of.
I am not trying to say you all have to agree with each others opinions. I see some things here I agree with, some I don't, and some I see on both sides. Am I asking too much to hope, just a small part of me, that we can stop acting like kids? From what I know, the majority of us are adults here. Some of us are married, most have professional carrers, and some of us have even started families. Why don't we try acting like it again.
Like I said, I'm not asking you to just agree with people you don't agree with, and I am not asking you not to argue. All I am asking is that we act like adults and keep things civil. Is that really too much to ask?
I hope not.
These "bickerings" have endured since this place existed (and if you've forgotten that, you've never been in ruminations) and some of the arguments provide the best laughs you'll find on tOWS.
If you are under the impression I'm plotting to kill Seek in a frothing-at-the-mouth blind rage or some shit, you got it all wrong. Me and him get along fine, and often meet up in Web-based games (since I obviously have no love for the Wii, lol).
His fanboyism requires a counterweight. It actually used to be a lot worse because he had zeus acting as his wingman.
I think in a lot of ways it has gotten worse but it's also sort of tradition. it never really gets much further than the classic insults.....Seek is a nintendo whore who fellates himself with a wiimote.....zeus has amazingly shitty taste in moview....rent whle new is a total troll who I've actually kinda grown to like. Don talks way too damn much, I'm a bi idiot who says things that are either gay, stupid, or both. at this point I think it's more having fun with each other than anything I know when I flip shit none of it is serious. I also know that after comic-con I'm getting back to teaching rent how to write comics since hopefully barring gettng a job....I'll have time again...YAYA. shit brak...we're all friends....even seek..M'k'n'zy wrote:I don't know, to me it seems to have gotten worse of late, but you are right in that I didn't frequent ruminations all that much. I was just in kinda a crabby mood last night, and I guess the bickering pushed me over the edge.kali o. wrote:Yes it's too much to ask and no, I won't abide.M'k'n'zy wrote:Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and probally end up pissing off everyone here, but I can't just sit here and be quiet anymore. Am I the only one who thinks this constant bickering is just getting out of control. Am I the only one who remembers the days when people at this place respected the opinions of others, even if they didn't agree with them? I mean yes, there were big arguements, and sometimes threads had to be locked, but this is just getting out of control at this point.
I am saying this not being on anyones side. But if I dont speak up here, this stupidity will just keep going and going. Honestly it probally will even with me speaking up, and to me that is very sad. I know I am not exactly the most frequent poster here out of the long time members, but all this constant fighting is starting to ruin my enjoyment of a community that I have long been proud to be a part of.
I am not trying to say you all have to agree with each others opinions. I see some things here I agree with, some I don't, and some I see on both sides. Am I asking too much to hope, just a small part of me, that we can stop acting like kids? From what I know, the majority of us are adults here. Some of us are married, most have professional carrers, and some of us have even started families. Why don't we try acting like it again.
Like I said, I'm not asking you to just agree with people you don't agree with, and I am not asking you not to argue. All I am asking is that we act like adults and keep things civil. Is that really too much to ask?
I hope not.
These "bickerings" have endured since this place existed (and if you've forgotten that, you've never been in ruminations) and some of the arguments provide the best laughs you'll find on tOWS.
If you are under the impression I'm plotting to kill Seek in a frothing-at-the-mouth blind rage or some shit, you got it all wrong. Me and him get along fine, and often meet up in Web-based games (since I obviously have no love for the Wii, lol).
His fanboyism requires a counterweight. It actually used to be a lot worse because he had zeus acting as his wingman.
Actually, your hostility has more to do with the fact that you're an Xbox "fanboy". Even when I am not the one to post Nintendo related stuff, you still post hostile posts. Sine admitted in his last post with this whole "console allegiance" post that he is also a Xbox fanboy. I post about what games I like on any console I have had in the past, whereas you two pick one system and bash everything else.kali o. wrote: His fanboyism requires a counterweight.
That's what matters to the individual, of course, but I still think it's valid to talk about sales numbers because that's what drives the industry. So while you may not see any reason to purchase a Wii, it's still worthwhile to talk about Wii sales because Nintendo may permanently change the videogame industry.SineSwiper wrote:That's what it means to "win", not sales numbers.
Haha, please. I don't give a shit whether MS "wins" anything, except in the larger sense that I'd like Sony to have competition and would probably simply quit gaming if Nintendo ruled the roost.Dutch wrote:Actually, your hostility has more to do with the fact that you're an Xbox "fanboy". Even when I am not the one to post Nintendo related stuff, you still post hostile posts. Sine admitted in his last post with this whole "console allegiance" post that he is also a Xbox fanboy. I post about what games I like on any console I have had in the past, whereas you two pick one system and bash everything else.kali o. wrote: His fanboyism requires a counterweight.
kali o. wrote:PS - don't gimme that "but the Wii is finding a whole new segment of the population and introducing them to gaming!", because the reality is these 2-games-per-console casual gamers will play bullshit like WiiSports, enjoy the novelty of swinging their remote until it wears off and then write off gaming as little more than the childish, shallow entertainment they always believed it to be.
I'll mostly ignore the fact that you just proved yourself a retard by making that comment (I won't point out why, anyone who reads your comment and then rereads the post you replied to can figure it outDutch wrote: As or your fanboyism, it is easily demonstrated as a result of the fact that most of your posts about the Xbox 360 are actually primarilly bashing the competition.
)...I also dont see where Kali mentioned that he wants video games to go mainstream. What he said is that he wants games with graphics, story, voice, and non marked up odd peripherals... and the 360 fits.Dutch wrote:If you are, as you imply, interested in seeing videogames become mainstream, Nintendo has already achieved that on a worldwide scale with the Wii and the DS; that is reflected in the sales numbers and continued high demand for the products.
That's certainly possible. But you're assuming a zero-sum game. That is, if a developer is working on the type of game you don't want to play, then he's doing it at the expense of one you would want to play. And that may be the case.Flip wrote:I cant see how people would want video games to go mainstream and become the norm in every household. Having moms play The Sims and every retard out there buy a Wii doesnt do anything for the games i like to play, which are similar to Kali's tastes. In fact, i would say that it hinders progress on the games i want to play since all the developers will be busy making the next Bejeweled as opposed to the next Shadows of the Colossus.
I have many times define what I think is the difference between "hardcore" and "casual", but since no one other than Kup seems to remember any previous posts/conversations, I'll point it out again.kali o. wrote:First, I mentioned mainstream, but as usual, Seeker got the context/usage incorrect.
Second, any loser that uses the word hardcore should be ignored for the rest of this thread. What the hell does Hardcore mean? What Nintendo games are "hardcore"? Does it mean the same as nostalgia factor (kinda like Alien vs Predator movies are for the HARDCORE fan!)? Non-waggle wand controls? I'm confused - and so is anyone that uses that stupid fucking term without solidly defining it first.
So define it, or stop using it.
I've been trying to use them that way but hopefully this pretty straightforward and dead-on distinction will try to get people away from the console war-like mentality people have towards the distinctionKupek wrote:I thought it was well defined. A casual game requires little initial investment and little prior experience playing videogames. They're targeted at people who don't usually play games. A hardcore game is basically everything else: from FPSes to RPGs.
It's not a value judgment, but a distinction based on how the market is dividing.
Seeker stopped talking and productive conversation started.Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:what in the hell is going on in this thread
Who is war-like? It's just a silly term. What defines time investment? Is it subjective to inherent intelligence? After all, it isn't rocket-science to figure out moving a stick does one thing and button presses do another. Madden is one of the more complicated control schemed games out there, but no one can deny it's one of the most casual gamer played games out there.Zeus wrote: I've been trying to use them that way but hopefully this pretty straightforward and dead-on distinction will try to get people away from the console war-like mentality people have towards the distinction
Another post reeking with fanboy ignorance and venom by Kali; why do I not find this surprising? With Mario Galaxy not only getting better reviews than Gears of War, but winning with the masses and selling more copies, I don't see how even you can believe such a ridiculous declaration as this post of yours.kali o. wrote:Who is war-like? It's just a silly term. What defines time investment? Is it subjective to inherent intelligence? After all, it isn't rocket-science to figure out moving a stick does one thing and button presses do another. Madden is one of the more complicated control schemed games out there, but no one can deny it's one of the most casual gamer played games out there.Zeus wrote: I've been trying to use them that way but hopefully this pretty straightforward and dead-on distinction will try to get people away from the console war-like mentality people have towards the distinction
Besides which, control schemes are irrelevant. Easy control inputs (or devices) do not dictate simplistic, shallow and unevolved gameplay. And that's basically all Nintendo provides (hence the hate). You could incorporate a Wii-mote style scheme for Gears of War pretty simply (again, I fail to see how this is 'easier' and not just different) and still have a solid well-done game, something Nintendo could never do and will never do.
I didn't think term definitions would be in question so much.kali o. wrote:Who is war-like? It's just a silly term. What defines time investment? Is it subjective to inherent intelligence? After all, it isn't rocket-science to figure out moving a stick does one thing and button presses do another.
Well, I don't know why you'd think that...I mean look, you just randomly added another criteria to the term "hardcore" (desire to play/desire to learn controls).Kupek wrote: I didn't think term definitions would be in question so much.
I think your perspective is off. You're right, if a person wants to play a game, even a complicated control scheme won't deter them. But that's not the set of people we're talking about with "casual." We mean people who ordinarily don't want to play games. If they have no a priori desire to play, then any barrier to entry is going to reinforce that. Simple control schemes, however, remove that barrier, and someone with no prior desire to play might be willing to try it out.
Hence why a game like Madden still falls under hardcore.
Motion control technology has been around for years. As have shallow simple games in your local toy store (tic tac toe, football, classic arcade ripoffs, hockey, TV periphrials w/ games, edutainment, etc). None of them have succeeded in pulling in more than toddlers and dudes that drink and fish on a boat all day.Zeus wrote:Kali, give it some time. I agree with you that many of these 'casual' games are very shallow. By nature, they almost have to be right now considering the history of the industry and the very recent introduction of a new control scheme. It's not perfect (the introduction of the MotionPlus is an admittance by Nintendo) and developers have to change the way they think to start developing motion-control enabled gaming. They're just trying to fit them into established genres, often with a forced feel.
Now, some of them work well. Games like Metroid 3, Medal of Honor Heroes 2, and Boom Blox work quite well IMO. It's just the beginning. Wait for the next gen of controllers when all three of them have it with their new systems and they're far more sensitive and the developers have had years to figure out how to use it properly. Then it'll start to be more than shallow shovelware which makes the most use of the motion controls.
Innovation don't happen overnight. The Wii is just the start of what will soon become the norm. It's starting with the casual, shallow stuff. It'll be a bit before it's fully incorporated into the established genres
No, I'm 100% objecting to the terms themselves. I don't care if you make intelligent distinctions along the way...see:Kupek wrote:It's hard to talking meaningfully about the future of the videogame industry without using these terms. You can further subdivide "hardcore" and "casuals" indefinitely, but the important point is the divide between people who seek games out, and people who don't, yet play them incidentally.
It seems you're not objecting to the terms themselves, but the idea that the distinction exists. We'll find out in the future if it's a meaningful one, but for now, I don't know how else to discuss the industry.
So, people who play games only incidentally, by the very definition, will be bad for software developers. If they only play once in a while, they will only BUY once in a while, even if they all buy the hardware.Kupek wrote:It's hard to talking meaningfully about the future of the videogame industry without using these terms. You can further subdivide "hardcore" and "casuals" indefinitely, but the important point is the divide between people who seek games out, and people who don't, yet play them incidentally.
Fine, come up with your own term to segment the market or potential market and the games that appeal to these different segments and we can debate the validity of such a term. If it's better, we'll use it. Like it or not, "hardcore" and "casual" are the best acceptable terms which are defined well enough to be used.kali o. wrote:No, I'm 100% objecting to the terms themselves. I don't care if you make intelligent distinctions along the way...see:Kupek wrote:It's hard to talking meaningfully about the future of the videogame industry without using these terms. You can further subdivide "hardcore" and "casuals" indefinitely, but the important point is the divide between people who seek games out, and people who don't, yet play them incidentally.
It seems you're not objecting to the terms themselves, but the idea that the distinction exists. We'll find out in the future if it's a meaningful one, but for now, I don't know how else to discuss the industry.
"but the important point is the divide between people who seek games out, and people who don't, yet play them incidentally"
You've also just further muddied the definitions by transfering the terms from the games themselves to the player...at this point, I have no idea how to define a casual/hardcore game or a casual/hardcore (non)player. I'd be willing to bet nobody here would uniformly agree what the hell the criteria for either is...
Drop the term, leave that dumb shit for the gamefaqs posters who need to reduce their jumbled opinions into one generic term.
So, yo momma who may only buy 2 or 3 DVDs a year is bad for the DVD market? C'mon, Sine, it's just a normal business cycle. I don't care what business you're talking about, you can even apply it to fashion.SineSwiper wrote:So, people who play games only incidentally, by the very definition, will be bad for software developers. If they only play once in a while, they will only BUY once in a while, even if they all buy the hardware.Kupek wrote:It's hard to talking meaningfully about the future of the videogame industry without using these terms. You can further subdivide "hardcore" and "casuals" indefinitely, but the important point is the divide between people who seek games out, and people who don't, yet play them incidentally.
Wii is looked on as a success story, but just because they latched onto a bigger audience (with bigger hardware sales numbers), doesn't mean that the audience is proper for the market. Make a game that even an idiot will play and only an idiot will play it.
But, what we've been arguing for the past several months is that Nintendo is NOT targetting the core gamer audience. They are occasionally tossing a bone to them, but their main audience is now the casual gamers. It's not an "embrace and extend" marketing move. It's shifting to a bigger audience at the risk of alienating the old one. To quote your DVD example, it would be like dropping most of your hardcore DVD collectors and videophiles in favor of the moms that buy 2-3 DVDs a year. (Funny you give out a video example, when the Wii is the one without HD capabilities.)Zeus wrote:So, yo momma who may only buy 2 or 3 DVDs a year is bad for the DVD market? C'mon, Sine, it's just a normal business cycle. I don't care what business you're talking about, you can even apply it to fashion.
In the beginning, it's for the "hardcores" (Kali, read the post above before you comment). Then as it expands more and more, you capture more and more of the "casuals" who purchase a fucklot less, but they're still a market segment nonetheless.
I like "core" as a term better than "hardcore", at least I know what the hell we are talking about that way. Now what about the other...? "non-gamers"?SineSwiper wrote: I'm not going to constantly argue over and over again about how the Wii does or doesn't respect the core gamer audience. Just know that there is plenty of evidence there and there are a lot of gamers who feel the same way about how that VGCats comics illustrates the situation.
This is where I disagree. Judging by their releases, they're actually giving the core audience exactly what they want while, at the same time, paying a shitload of attention to the non-core audience. Thus, they're doing both. Nintendo's a big enough company to be able to do that....and they areSineSwiper wrote:But, what we've been arguing for the past several months is that Nintendo is NOT targetting the core gamer audience. They are occasionally tossing a bone to them, but their main audience is now the casual gamers. It's not an "embrace and extend" marketing move. It's shifting to a bigger audience at the risk of alienating the old one. To quote your DVD example, it would be like dropping most of your hardcore DVD collectors and videophiles in favor of the moms that buy 2-3 DVDs a year. (Funny you give out a video example, when the Wii is the one without HD capabilities.)Zeus wrote:So, yo momma who may only buy 2 or 3 DVDs a year is bad for the DVD market? C'mon, Sine, it's just a normal business cycle. I don't care what business you're talking about, you can even apply it to fashion.
In the beginning, it's for the "hardcores" (Kali, read the post above before you comment). Then as it expands more and more, you capture more and more of the "casuals" who purchase a fucklot less, but they're still a market segment nonetheless.
I'm not going to constantly argue over and over again about how the Wii does or doesn't respect the core gamer audience. Just know that there is plenty of evidence there and there are a lot of gamers who feel the same way about how that VGCats comics illustrates the situation.
Fine, I'll use "core" and "non-gamers" for you. It's the same shit to me, just semanticskali o. wrote:I like "core" as a term better than "hardcore", at least I know what the hell we are talking about that way. Now what about the other...? "non-gamers"?SineSwiper wrote: I'm not going to constantly argue over and over again about how the Wii does or doesn't respect the core gamer audience. Just know that there is plenty of evidence there and there are a lot of gamers who feel the same way about how that VGCats comics illustrates the situation.
Both those terms make (more) sense.
You and Seeker are the only two who think that, and I have to say that you're both a bit biased (being Nintendo fanboys and all).Zeus wrote:This is where I disagree. Judging by their releases, they're actually giving the core audience exactly what they want while, at the same time, paying a shitload of attention to the non-core audience. Thus, they're doing both. Nintendo's a big enough company to be able to do that....and they are
Wouldn't that make us Nintendo's core audience then?SineSwiper wrote:You and Seeker are the only two who think that, and I have to say that you're both a bit biased (being Nintendo fanboys and all).Zeus wrote:This is where I disagree. Judging by their releases, they're actually giving the core audience exactly what they want while, at the same time, paying a shitload of attention to the non-core audience. Thus, they're doing both. Nintendo's a big enough company to be able to do that....and they are
I actually provided empirical evidence, not just an opinion.SineSwiper wrote:You and Seeker are the only two who think that, and I have to say that you're both a bit biased (being Nintendo fanboys and all).Zeus wrote:This is where I disagree. Judging by their releases, they're actually giving the core audience exactly what they want while, at the same time, paying a shitload of attention to the non-core audience. Thus, they're doing both. Nintendo's a big enough company to be able to do that....and they are
