Canadians: your gas retailers, not OPEC, are ripping you off

[Zeus]

Just so you don't think it's something that I came up with out of my ass

http://www.torontosun.com/Money/2008/08 ... 1-sun.html

[Kupek]

I've heard reports on NPR that gas station owners in the US are losing money; their margins are shrinking and people are buying less.

Finally read the article. It's high on speculation and light on facts. Canadian profit margins may be higher per gallon, but you have to multiply that by gallons sold. If people are buying less, it's possible that higher per-gallon margins can still mean less profits.

[Zeus]

It's based on what the companies have been publically saying ("we're gonna charge you 1 cent for each $1 price in the barrel"; that was their excuse for raising prices before when the oil barrel was going crazy) as well as trends in the gas prices.

If you lived here, you would know that it ain't bullshit (or "speculation"). How can the gas price be the same when oil was $126 a barrel as when it's $113 a barrel? Demand? Not really. We Canadians didn't react quite as strongly as you Americans when it came to the gas prices. There really hasn't been a significant drop in people travelling or doing stuff in the summer (such as going camping or to cottages) as our economy hasn't been hit nearly as hard as yours.

It's pure gouging, nothing else. No other excuses, no attempt at even any other explanation by either the gov't or the industry. If you lived in this country, you would be able to see how our government is far worse than yours when it comes to the whole "for the people" idea. They ain't doin' jack shit 'cause they get the extra tax revenue, not to mention the funding/kickbacks.

The blatancy has gotten so bad up here that we've had politicians - yes, the people we vote for who are supposed to provide a regulatory environment for companies to work within in the best interest of the public - say "yep, they're gouging, but there's nothing we can do about it". I tried looking for the article but I couldn't find it.

And it seems that it's finally getting to the point where our extremely apathetic society is starting to say "enough".

[Kupek]

IWe Canadians didn't react quite as strongly as you Americans when it came to the gas prices.

Unless you have data from gallons sold over the months (broken down by individual stations would help) then, yes, this is speculation.

[Zeus]

IWe Canadians didn't react quite as strongly as you Americans when it came to the gas prices.

Unless you have data from gallons sold over the months (broken down by individual stations would help) then, yes, this is speculation.

This is the closest article I could find figures-wise:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/new ... 1f4a5e84fd

4.5% vs last year? Not significant enough for the additional gouging going on. They've even contradicted themselves on the whole "1 cent per $1 of oil" bullshit excuse they came up with before. This article actually backs a lot of what I said above and states that they woulda gouged us even more if they thought they could (that little drop slowed them down as they're trying to fend off a national uprising). It even considers the slowdown to be more economy-related as opposed to price-related. I think a lot of you guys down there don't really realize just how apathetic people are here and how that leads to our companies and government really sodomizing us at every turn.

And that's before you even talk about the fact that demand went up in 2007 vs 2006 when the gouging started, so that drop is just closer to 2006 levels when the price was somewhat reasonable

http://www.albertagasprices.com/news/Vo ... index.aspx

Seriously, Kup, if you were up here and you saw what was going on, you wouldn't be questioning it. This ain't speculation, this is fact. Just because they're not stupid enough to put it on paper that they're raping us it don't mean it ain't happenin' (wow, three negatives in one sentence, I'm on a roll :-). It's simple: they're gouging us and looking at the reaction to see what they can get away with. There isn't even an attempt by the industry or government to dispute the fact that gouging is going on.

There's even a Liberal (our Democrat) MP who's got his own crusade campaign against it (look at the original article).

[SineSwiper]

I haven't read most of this, but I just wanted to state that this is simple corporate economics, and frankly, Zeus, you should know better. When the price of oil climbs high, the price of gas shoots immediately. When the price of oil falls, the price doesn't drop until other gas stations start to drop. This is typical supply and demand.

Of course, with the sudden change in driving habits, the expected profits are dropping, so gas prices are remaining high. This will come to a head until people continue to slow down on driving, and the gas companies will realize that they can no longer have the profits they used to. Prices will drop, and as long as the populations' perspective on gas is that the prices are normal, the price will remain there.

Corporations, especially publically traded ones, are instinctual entities. They have no morals, or sense of right and wrong. Quit trying to pretend otherwise.

If you don't want price gouging at the pump, make gas a utility.

[Imakeholesinu]

I haven't read most of this, but I just wanted to state that this is simple corporate economics, and frankly, Zeus, you should know better. When the price of oil climbs high, the price of gas shoots immediately. When the price of oil falls, the price doesn't drop until other gas stations start to drop. This is typical supply and demand.

Of course, with the sudden change in driving habits, the expected profits are dropping, so gas prices are remaining high. This will come to a head until people continue to slow down on driving, and the gas companies will realize that they can no longer have the profits they used to. Prices will drop, and as long as the populations' perspective on gas is that the prices are normal, the price will remain there.

Corporations, especially publically traded ones, are instinctual entities. They have no morals, or sense of right and wrong. Quit trying to pretend otherwise.

If you don't want price gouging at the pump, make gas a utility.

Just make it so you can't speculate about it like...

"Some guy in Arab-land farted...time to raise gas prices." And make it so that oil speculators have to actually be able to house the amount they purchase when the drive up the price.

[Zeus]

Sine, what I was saying is that it's due to collusion within the retail industry, not due to some unwritten rule. Unwritten rules will be broken by human nature if you have competition 'cause one of the players will determine it's more beneficial to break the rule than to follow it since there's no consequences. That's very, very basic economics.

Of course, that goes out the window if you virtually eliminate all competition and only have 3 or 4 players who work together to artificially inflate the prices. If you read the articles, that's what they're showing and that's what's happening.

And if you think about it, driving habits are changing due to the high prices. So, if you run a profitability analysis, wouldn't you as a large retailer say "hey, we've got stations everywhere, why don't we drop the price to try and grab more of the competition and try to curb people's change in habits, which will hurt us long term"? They won't do that 'cause they've done that in the past but now have another plan in mind: let the people change their habits, eventually, they'll just get used to it and demand will go back up.

There's really no other explanation to what's going on. And like I've mentioned before, it's so blatant now that they're not even denying it anymore and the gov't is saying "yeah, it's happening, we just can't do anything about it". My asshole you can't.....

[SineSwiper]

Like I said, make it a fucking utility. That is the only solution. Otherwise, don't bitch when corporations *GASP* try to make a profit off of it.

[Julius Seeker]

Good, companies should be charging ridiculous prices for privately used gasoline. Keeps our air a little fresher.

[Zeus]

Like I said, make it a fucking utility. That is the only solution. Otherwise, don't bitch when corporations *GASP* try to make a profit off of it.

Now you're talking about government regulation which, as stated above, ain't gonna happen 'cause the gov't is making as much off the gas as anyone else.

We actually did have a gov't owned gas retailer up here for the longest time called Petro Canada. Then they went private, partnered up with Esso (our Exxon), and they're now a major part of the problem. If Petro was still publically owned we'd be talking about a whole different ballgame.

[Zeus]

Good, companies should be charging ridiculous prices for privately used gasoline. Keeps our air a little fresher.

If there was adequate public transportation in all of our urban centres, including the smaller cities like mine, I'd agree. But to unreasonable charge (tax) people just because the gov't has not been able to provide an adequate solution to driving a gas-powered car is just silly and goes against the entire reason for a government to exist.

Do you honestly think that those thousands and thousands of people are getting stuck every single day in insane traffic in Toronto do it willingly? If there was a Manhattan-level bus and subway system I promise you that you'd cut down the gasoline usage - and by extension, the pollution - significantly.

[Julius Seeker]

Good, companies should be charging ridiculous prices for privately used gasoline. Keeps our air a little fresher.

If there was adequate public transportation in all of our urban centres, including the smaller cities like mine, I'd agree. But to unreasonable charge (tax) people just because the gov't has not been able to provide an adequate solution to driving a gas-powered car is just silly and goes against the entire reason for a government to exist.

Do you honestly think that those thousands and thousands of people are getting stuck every single day in insane traffic in Toronto do it willingly? If there was a Manhattan-level bus and subway system I promise you that you'd cut down the gasoline usage - and by extension, the pollution - significantly.

Can't disagree here. That is one thing Canada hasn't been good with everywhere, putting a lot more funding into public transportation; more money into healthy fuel efficient methods as well; why not become a biking society? I usually don't think about it because my town is so small, the actual city that matters takes about 50 minutes to walk across and I live around the middle; our public transport is limited to hourly buses (except in the mornings when they are half-hourly). I only use my car when going out of town.

[Zeus]

In places like Toronto or even Kitchener, that's unreasonable, particularly in the winter. And we're a relatively spread-out country, if the gov't don't keep up with the infrastructure (and they haven't) or provide us with a proper non-gas vehicle that can work for most people (this electric car thing in Quebec and BC where they go only 50km/h is a bit sad), then we have to drive. I only live 7km from work and I can't take any transportation other than my car for instance

The way they're going is they're essentially taxing the public for their lack of regulation and their inability (or lack of desire) to properly serve the public's needs.

And people still think their vote matters....