The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Liar Game logic puzzle

  • Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
 #125815  by Don
 Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:27 pm
There's a small community of fans trying to figure out the Liar Game puzzles before they're actually resolved, and unlike the generic detective manga where the killer was Joe's twin brother separated at birth disguised as a doorknob, everything in Liar Game is pretty straightforward logically when they want you to figure it out. The current round seems to have everybody stomped and I'm curious if anybody is interested in the such things like I am. The current scenario:

The game played is the 17 card poker, using 4 Aces, Kings, Queens, Jacks, and 1 Joker. Joker is wild. Each player is dealt 5 cards and can swap 0-5 cards once. Betting is done in two rounds (before swap, after swap) in a typical poker fashion (hold/check/reraise) with no limit to amount of chips (obviously the total chips is finite). Nao's team features Akiyama, the smartest character in the story by a large margin, but his opponent has already declared that he will win this no matter what cards are dealt. Nao also said she thinks the other guy has figured out a way to win for sure, and Nao's intuition is basically never wrong in the story on things like this so far.

The only hints we're given is that this guy once swapped 4 of his cards in a round. Akiyama notes that with only 17 cards, you either have a pair or you've a straight (Joker, A, K, Q, J), so you'd never want to swap 4 cards to improve your hand, but does not understand why this was done.

Cheating, such as marking the cards, is ruled out because a new deck is used after each round. The new deck has different patterns compared to the older one so you cannot hide old cards and reuse them later.

Tricks with rearrangement of the deck seems to be impossible because the loser gets to cut the deck and the deck is shuffled by a neutral observer.

Akiyama so far looks to be a far stronger poker player than his opponent in all aspects of the game.

When the guy is asked by his team what if Akiyama figured out the trick (since he is only like the smartest guy in the story), he answered that it doesn't matter if Akiyama figures out the same trick because this strategy 'only works for me.'

Note that not all information in Liar Game is useful. Some are extraneous. I wrote down everything that was mentioned as potentially relevent.

My guess is that this guy will either swap 5 cards if he has no Joker, or 4 if he has the Joker. This gets you at least 14 out of 17 cards in the whole deck used, so he has a near certainty of knowing which cards are left used by Akiyama, so he can figure out if his hand can beat Akiyama or not. However this strategy doesn't follow the criteria 'only usable by one person' as the other person can also do the same thing, and if both players employ this you'd see the whole deck used (swap 4-5, swap whatever's left) and the loser will fold before anything happens, so I'm not sure this is the strategy he will use.

 #125820  by Chris
 Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:49 pm
I'm sorry but what the fuck are you talking about?

 #125842  by Tessian
 Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:17 pm
Don lives in a separate world where he actually thinks some of us, let alone one of us, is as crazy about manga as himself. I believe Eric's the only other one who reads any manga even semi-regularly. Explaining wtf he's talking about would take too long, it's much easier to just assume everyone knows about some new manga that's never been discussed here before ;)

 #125843  by Eric
 Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:37 pm
I read Don's posts actually, AND I can make sense of them. Har. :0

 #125845  by Don
 Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:40 pm
The situation presented is purely logical and it's not unlike say one of those InQuest Magic the Gathering puzzle where you can figure out what's supposed to happen assuming you know the rules and you read what the cards did.

Though the problems are surprisingly difficult to solve.

 #125846  by Flip
 Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:23 am
Ive read the manga up to the end of the redemption round... where are you getting the newer ones?

I like the puzzles this comic presents, its thought provoking and fun to try and figure out. Knowing the manga, though, the opponent is most likely full of shit. He thinks he knows that his strategy is unbeatable, but Akiyama will counter it with something more brilliant. In every round the antagonist thinks he has the game figured out, and while you read you think hes right... only to have Akiyama counter with something better. I dont know if i would waste time even thinking about this puzzle since the enemy's strategy is most likely bunk.

EDIT:: More on why i think it is pointless to spend time on this, is that you will have to think like a person who THINKS they are smart. My best guess is that the opponents strategy is flawed... Akiyama, knowing that the other guy is a retard, will guess what strategy that the guy thinks is unbeatable, but will beat it and explain to everyone why it wasnt. I dont agree with you that Nao is usually right with her intuition that the enemy has a winning strategy. In fact, i have no clue where you are coming from with this. She was wrong in every round when she thought she was beat and things were hopeless, even down to the mini games within each round (i.e. the card game in the redemption round). You posted earlier that you liked her honest character and truly believed in it, but i see her a stereotypical female idiot that a lot of JRPGs and mangas stick in. As far as ive read, she hasnt tricked anyone with honesty or done anything remotely helpful. Shes there to drive Akiyama, since she reminds him of his own mother, and basically nothing else.

 #125850  by Don
 Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:44 am
I get my stuff from Chinese site which is pretty much as fast as the Japanese stuff. I guess you're just done with the R2 loser's bracket which means you haven't seen R3 when Nao starts showing why she even exists in this story.

When Nao says she thinks the opponent has figured out a guaranteed to win strategy, the masked guys watching from the video says this girl is more dangerous than they thought, and they also said the same thing, that Akiyama cannot win even if he knows what his opponent's strategy is. They could be wrong, but it really sounds like there's an uncounterable strategy to win this game.

 #125851  by Eric
 Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:16 am
Flip wrote:Ive read the manga up to the end of the redemption round... where are you getting the newer ones?

I like the puzzles this comic presents, its thought provoking and fun to try and figure out. Knowing the manga, though, the opponent is most likely full of shit. He thinks he knows that his strategy is unbeatable, but Akiyama will counter it with something more brilliant. In every round the antagonist thinks he has the game figured out, and while you read you think hes right... only to have Akiyama counter with something better. I dont know if i would waste time even thinking about this puzzle since the enemy's strategy is most likely bunk.

EDIT:: More on why i think it is pointless to spend time on this, is that you will have to think like a person who THINKS they are smart. My best guess is that the opponents strategy is flawed... Akiyama, knowing that the other guy is a retard, will guess what strategy that the guy thinks is unbeatable, but will beat it and explain to everyone why it wasnt. I dont agree with you that Nao is usually right with her intuition that the enemy has a winning strategy. In fact, i have no clue where you are coming from with this. She was wrong in every round when she thought she was beat and things were hopeless, even down to the mini games within each round (i.e. the card game in the redemption round). You posted earlier that you liked her honest character and truly believed in it, but i see her a stereotypical female idiot that a lot of JRPGs and mangas stick in. As far as ive read, she hasnt tricked anyone with honesty or done anything remotely helpful. Shes there to drive Akiyama, since she reminds him of his own mother, and basically nothing else.
Of Flip, you have been drawn in.

*Begins chant* One of us, one of us.

Now if only I could get Zeus to give up on Naruto's anime and read the manga.

 #125854  by Zeus
 Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:56 am
Nah, don't have the time for that. I also don't really like reading manga / comics online, it's irritating. I'm old, I prefer a book. Even with newspapers or mags. I will read them online but I prefer the old fashioned tangible paper in front of me. That's why I still pay for EGM even though I can get pretty much all of the info and the majority of the articles for free.

But also, I feel that if the animation is done well, it's actually better than the book/comic. Like the old Naruto. Now, Naruto and Bleach are more of a habitual thing, a way to take a 20-minute break than the crack-cocaine Naruto was for the first 135 eps.

 #125866  by Don
 Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:25 pm
I can't do any heavy reading from a computer but manga is not exactly heavy duty reading unless it's HXH.

I'm not going to say the manga is always better than the Anime but I will say that a lot of Anime adaptation are done by people who are totally clueless as to what made the original good.

 #125907  by SineSwiper
 Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:52 pm
Maybe if they could make manga in color and in graphic novel form, I might get hooked on it. Man, I've certainly gotten hooked on US comics now. (Again.)

 #125939  by Don
 Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:39 am
I started buying more of the Hong Kong manga just because it's in color. It's more expensive by far, the story is retarded, and the art quality is so-so, but I find the fact that it's in color to be more appealing than most manga. I figure if you're going to waste money on something that turns out to suck anyway, at least you can buy something that's colorful.

 #126026  by Don
 Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:30 am
Turns out you just have to try harder on cheating.

I really like how this manga always has a good mix of logic and cheating, and it's never obvious which is the strategy to go with.

 #126046  by Chris
 Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:30 pm
ok so you have one cock in your deck. the guy across the table has 2. you need a pair of balls to win the hand over the pair of cocks. what is the strategy?

 #126049  by Eric
 Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:55 pm
Chris wrote:ok so you have one cock in your deck. the guy across the table has 2. you need a pair of balls to win the hand over the pair of cocks. what is the strategy?
I send you over there with the instructions "by any means necessary".

You gleefully tip tap over and get me those balls. I win, by exploiting your homosexualism.

^_^

 #126057  by SineSwiper
 Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:25 pm
Chris wrote:ok so you have one cock in your deck. the guy across the table has 2. you need a pair of balls to win the hand over the pair of cocks. what is the strategy?
It's a trick question. Both cocks are already in your mouth and you're got a hold of the two balls.