The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Megaman 9 confirmed for Wiiware...

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.

 #127503  by Don
 Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:17 am
Just because you have a design that works doesn't mean it's okay to purposely rip out any innovation or progress that's happened in the last 20 years.

You can say Super Mario Brothers or Zelda has a working design model but people would rightfully feel wrong if the next Mario or Zelda game went back to the 8-bit gameplay and graphics.

Consider the staggering amount of people worked on MM9, and the fact that they actually have to artificially come up with worse graphics and stuff to emulate the shortcomings of the 8 bit system, it's pretty safe to say you could have at least had SNES+ level graphics for essentially free. Had Megaman looked like what he looked like in the SNES era (more detailed), it would not have taken anything away from the game.

I came across this http://www.dzarchive.com/iragination/il ... p?pos=-455 that pokes fun of how the MM9 guys happened to look like the Guardians of MMZ. The thing is I'm sure they could have actually looked about as good as the Guardians in MMZ if they wanted to, but were not. Would that add anything meaningful to the game? Probably not, but why would you want something to look worse than it could have been just because you can?

You don't need the carry the crucifix of ghetto graphics to make a good game. The game could have look completely up to date to modern 2D expectations and still play exactly the same. The game didn't somehow become better by using backward graphics. It's just as ridiculous as saying a fighting game can be illustrated by stick figures and that will keep the gameplay pure, or have a side scrolling shooter replaced with dots as graphics. From a level design and gameplay point of view, there's no difference between a dot equal to your ship's hitbox compared to some actual graphics, but people actually like to look at things that look reasonably up to date.

 #127504  by SineSwiper
 Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:17 am
Kupek wrote:Do you have a reason why BC:R is legitimate while MM9 is not? Keep in mind when I say "design," that has nothing to do with graphics and sound.
Variety. With Mega Man 9, you have two moves: jump and fire. That kind of old school mechanics gets old quickly. Even with the weapons you gain from the bosses, the weapons just aren't innovative enough.

The Vector Cannon? See, that's an innovative weapon. The bionic arm lends itself to a lot of different mechanics, too, than just shooting diagonally and swinging. Overall, it's not just level design that makes a game; it's character mechanics. (Besides, Bionic Commando for the NES already trumps any old skool Mega Man game.)

Also, there IS something to be said for updated graphics and music. Graphics and music are a part of the game. By going "retro", they've basically just stabbed themselves in the leg. Meanwhile, BC:R's soundtrack is outstanding and the graphics update makes the game more enjoyable.
Don wrote:You don't need the carry the crucifix of ghetto graphics to make a good game. The game could have look completely up to date to modern 2D expectations and still play exactly the same. The game didn't somehow become better by using backward graphics. It's just as ridiculous as saying a fighting game can be illustrated by stick figures and that will keep the gameplay pure, or have a side scrolling shooter replaced with dots as graphics. From a level design and gameplay point of view, there's no difference between a dot equal to your ship's hitbox compared to some actual graphics, but people actually like to look at things that look reasonably up to date.
QFT.

 #127505  by Kupek
 Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:12 am
I think we've ciricled around a dozen times by now. The only responses I have are things I've already said, so I think it's time to just drop it.

 #127507  by Eric
 Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:15 pm
At least you argued about something for 4 pages without it degrading into personal insults. ^_^

 #127512  by Julius Seeker
 Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:04 pm
*hurricane kicks Eric in the head*

 #127520  by Zeus
 Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:32 am
Don, yes it would have been nice for them to take what they have included in the X and Zero series' and given us a SNES+ level MM game. But that doesn't mean that what they did is shitty and should be discounted completely. It's still a well-made, very old-school game that's great for the fans. Just because it could (or should) have been something more don't mean it's shit

/discussion on this

 #127522  by Don
 Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:35 am
If they got a staff of 70 people involved in this game, they can certainly do better than this. I'm pretty sure people get paid per time spent anyway so it's not like having the same artist make 8 bit graphics means you get to pay him any less compared to some modern graphics. In fact it might be more because they mentioned during the development they got to figure out how to do it like back in the old days when they didn't have all the tools they got today.

 #127533  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:19 am
If the product is is created with the classic graphics set to meet the demand for a game with the classic graphics set; why would they create it with a different graphics set?

What are the nature of those 70 people involved in the games development and production?

 #127546  by Don
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:36 pm
Using 70 people to work on a game that's 8-bit graphics seem to be totally wasteful.

Go find any random youtube clip showing the ending and you can count the guys that show up on the credits. There's a good deal of marketing and localization guys on there but there's also a pretty big staff on everything else. Four guys worked on the music of MM9, for example. I think that's more than any Square game I know of depending on how you define music (I assume it includes sound effects but I think they got a separate list for that).

 #127550  by Lox
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:09 pm
Don wrote:Using 70 people to work on a game that's 8-bit graphics seem to be totally wasteful.

Go find any random youtube clip showing the ending and you can count the guys that show up on the credits. There's a good deal of marketing and localization guys on there but there's also a pretty big staff on everything else. Four guys worked on the music of MM9, for example. I think that's more than any Square game I know of depending on how you define music (I assume it includes sound effects but I think they got a separate list for that).
You're making the assumption that all these guys did was work on MM9. Maybe this was 10% of many of their schedules and the other 90% was other stuff. They all worked on it, so they all get credit, but it doesn't mean they all put in the same effort or that the effort was even substantial.

 #127552  by Don
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:21 pm
Lox wrote:
Don wrote:Using 70 people to work on a game that's 8-bit graphics seem to be totally wasteful.

Go find any random youtube clip showing the ending and you can count the guys that show up on the credits. There's a good deal of marketing and localization guys on there but there's also a pretty big staff on everything else. Four guys worked on the music of MM9, for example. I think that's more than any Square game I know of depending on how you define music (I assume it includes sound effects but I think they got a separate list for that).
You're making the assumption that all these guys did was work on MM9. Maybe this was 10% of many of their schedules and the other 90% was other stuff. They all worked on it, so they all get credit, but it doesn't mean they all put in the same effort or that the effort was even substantial.
And you have no way of knowing that was the case. The fact is that most games in the 8-bit era featured about 10 guys on staff. If 3 of the guys worked on music turned to work on a 3 second segment in the opening then they still have to pay them for the time spent working on it, and multitasking is not an effective use of time. If 20 guys worked on the game for 10 minutes it cost a lot more than 200 minutes worth of wage in reality because of various overheads involved. At the very least the 25 or so guys on the Inticreates staff probably worked on this full time (they sure don't seem to be working on anything else right now with ZX3 in the limbo). The ~50 guys in Capcom Japan + Capcom elsewhere probably didn't work on the game full time, but I doubt it's a 10 minute job either.

 #127553  by Zeus
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:31 pm
Take a look at the credits for the movie Bullitt. It only lists about 12 people. But you can't tell me only 12 people worked on that movie.

I'm pretty sure who gets included in the credits has changed in 20 years as well.

 #127555  by Lox
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:42 pm
Don wrote:And you have no way of knowing that was the case. The fact is that most games in the 8-bit era featured about 10 guys on staff. If 3 of the guys worked on music turned to work on a 3 second segment in the opening then they still have to pay them for the time spent working on it, and multitasking is not an effective use of time. If 20 guys worked on the game for 10 minutes it cost a lot more than 200 minutes worth of wage in reality because of various overheads involved. At the very least the 25 or so guys on the Inticreates staff probably worked on this full time (they sure don't seem to be working on anything else right now with ZX3 in the limbo). The ~50 guys in Capcom Japan + Capcom elsewhere probably didn't work on the game full time, but I doubt it's a 10 minute job either.
You basically made my point in your 1st sentence. You don't know that your assumption is any more correct than mine. And you're the one making the statement that "Using 70 people to work on a game that's 8-bit graphics seem to be totally wasteful". The burden of proof for whether that's accurate is on you, not me. I was just pointing out that the foundation of your reasoning for disliking MM9 isn't exactly steady.

 #127556  by Don
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:01 pm
The burden of proof is on you because having a 70 man staff on a game like MM9 is very unusual. Game credits usually put anybody that has anything to do with the game and even then they don't get much bigger than 100 in all but the biggest titles. If you remove the artists (generally the biggest chunk of manpower) even a game like WoW or FF12 doesn't have more than 100 people working on it, and I'm quite sure MM9 did not require a staggering number of artists to get its antiquated graphics (and if it did that's their problem for being dumb by using so many people to create graphics equivalent of a 1 man flash game). Even the core staff of Inticreates has a 25 man team. I'm willing to bet you that no Megaman game has 70 people's name show up in the credit list and I fail to see what's so special about MM9 that just happens to have all these guys who really didn't do anything that show up in the credits compared to any other Megaman game.

 #127557  by Lox
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:42 pm
But why does it matter if it's unusual? Why does that make it wasteful? Your entire argument is that it seems wasteful, but you have no proof that is the case. There are a number of possible reasons why the credits list that many people, but you don't know what the real reasons are. I have said nothing that needs proof, only you have.

 #127558  by Don
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:48 pm
Because extraordinary circumstances means it's not normal? Megaman has never been a heavy staff game. Inticreates probably only has 50 people employed in the entire company and I don't recall any of the recent Megaman games having more than 50 people show up on the credit list. The list basically looks like a full staff for a Zero/ZX games, and then times 3.

It is possible they just happened to put a ton of names on this game for the sake of it, but consider this game is totally about being 'old school' why would there suddenly be such a dramatic shift in the way resources are allocated? What 8-bit game can you think of that has 70 people on the credit list? Does one even exist?

 #127560  by Zeus
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:15 pm
I have to say what everyone is thinking:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!? HOW DOES THIS AFFECT WHETHER OR NOT TO BUY THE GAME AS IT CLEARLY HAS TO YOU?

 #127562  by Eric
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:17 pm
Zeus wrote:I have to say what everyone is thinking:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!? HOW DOES THIS AFFECT WHETHER OR NOT TO BUY THE GAME AS IT CLEARLY HAS TO YOU?
Oo

Don got to you.

 #127563  by Zeus
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:20 pm
Eric wrote:
Zeus wrote:I have to say what everyone is thinking:

WHO FUCKING CARES?!? HOW DOES THIS AFFECT WHETHER OR NOT TO BUY THE GAME AS IT CLEARLY HAS TO YOU?
Oo

Don got to you.
I'm just amazed how long it's gone on for. I can see what Lox is trying to do but man......

I just can't understand how the number of people who worked on a game can in any which way shape or form affect a purchase. And people think that my # of hours = value analysis is nuts.....

 #127564  by Lox
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:27 pm
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me, but I can only lurk in a thread for so long before I have to point things out. :) I was actually going to make my next reply the last one because I know that there's no point in discussing it with Don any further.

The funny thing is that I'm not even interested in MM9. :) I've never been a MM fan so I'm not buying it. heh

 #127565  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:04 pm
Music is normally contracted, these guys were probably all contracted for various songs and sound effects.

After browsing the credits on Youtube: there's 1 head artist, 2 additional artists, 1 head programmer and 6 additional programmers. Ten people; that is fairly standard for a project of that size. The other credits are all suits and design credits on the developer side; the rest of the credits being publisher side.