The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • Why do genres fade away?

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #128364  by Don
 Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:27 pm
I was reading an article about how the vertical/horizontal side scroller genre died because of advancement in graphics or something like that. Well, it's certainly not very hard to confirm the side scrolling shooter genre isn't doing very good, since I can't find any of them in the shelves of a typical game store. It is also easy to say well since everything is always looking prettier and shooter games usually aren't very pretty, then that must be why the genre died out. But I think it's just an excuse for people who forgot how to make good shooters, and with the amount of games out there today, people no longer have to put up with a lousy game because there are far too many alternatives. If your game is like Gradius V where you got to die pointlessly for 15 hours before an average person can beat it via unlimited continues, the average player probably isn't going to buy Gradius VI when it comes out only to get burned again.

Another genre I'm interested in, turn-based strategy game, certainly fits the fading away theme well. It'd be easy to blame the death of turn-based game to RTS. Yet KOEI still releases ROTK games, and they're about as hardcore turn-based as it gets. Presumably they also have a good idea of how much it will sell, so it's not going to cost them more money to make one compared to its expected profit. The latest ROTK game, ROTK 11, is a very well polished game, to the point that it is practically unwinnable between two players of equal ability because there are no easy exploits (or rather anything you can do they can do it back to you). Compared to the early ROTK games, ROTK11 certainly has come a long way, and I don't know if KOEI got rewarded financially for ROTK11, but the diehard turn-based fans certainly appreciate the effort. They recently have another ROTK11 spinoff on one of the handheld system, so certainly we can see KOEI was not punished for making a good game.

Now compare this to say, Panzer General 3: Scorched Earth. I think if you're to put the original Panzer General vs PG3 and put them side by side, you honestly cannot say PG3 is better, and that's not just nostaglia speaking. Of course PG3 looks better, but gameplay imbalances render the strategy portion of the game meaningless when bombardment -> tactician -> enveloping virtually guaranteeds the ability to take any hex regardless of how well fortified it is. I think people still do play by email games for Panzer General, even though that'd take a ridiculously amount of time, while the same cannot be said for PG3. Why would you want to play someone if you know their 3 moves will guaranteed to take your objective no matter how well defended it is?

Sometimes I almost think certain genres succeeded due to pure accident. A game like Master of Magic or X-COM seem to only occur by a pure accident stroke of genius, because I sure don't see such brilliance duplicated in sequels or copied. I don't think people were more creative back in the 'good old days', but back then you didn't need as much money to do stuff, so you've more room to create something cool on accident.

What other games do you think are like this? Games that seem to be totally awesome and yet never duplicated and just fade away in history?

 #128367  by Kupek
 Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:51 pm
I think there is something to the idea that genres are artifacts of current technology - say, 2D platformers or classic shoot-em-ups. Mario's design itself is an artifact of technology limitations. From Wikipedia:
Graphical limitations forced his design: Drawing a mouth was too difficult, so the character got a mustache; the programmers could not animate hair, so he got a cap; and to make his arm movements visible, he needed colored overalls.
I think the genre of 2D platformers exist for a similar reason.

There's also the novelty factor: if someone makes the best shoot-em-up today, it's still a shoot-em-up, and most people have played at least one game like it. The novelty is gone. I think there is space for improvement in a genre, and good execution can make for an exceptional game. But I think that novelty drives the videogame industry more than improving execution.

You might want to check out Valkyria Chronicles if you're interested in turn-based strategy games.

 #128370  by Don
 Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:38 pm
Well in some of the case you can say this, like side scrolling fighting games got replaced by something (no one is sure what, but it is definitely replaced) and is probably related to technology. But what about a game like X-COM?

 #128378  by Imakeholesinu
 Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:16 pm
Don wrote:Well in some of the case you can say this, like side scrolling fighting games got replaced by something (no one is sure what, but it is definitely replaced) and is probably related to technology. But what about a game like X-COM?
Yeah, what happened to the great Space SIms also? Privateer 2, Wing Commander...WHERE HAVE THEY GONE!!!

 #128386  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:40 am
The main issue is money. With the way the retail structure is set up there are a lot of other parties that take a share of the price. Of course, now with download services for console and PC, they're removing the middlemen; we may have already seen the end of this genre decline. We're seeing more new shooters and many re-releases of classic shooters in the past couple of years than we have since the early 90's. I would say that genre is on the rise again. Gradius, Geometry Wars, and R-Type have been getting a lot of exposure recently.

It's much less painful to the consumer to spend 5-20 dollars from your own household on something you may not like. Much less painful then it is to actually go out to the store and purchase something up to 60, or even 80, dollars that you may not like.

 #128392  by Don
 Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:08 pm
Well there's the shelving cost involved that prevents you from selling a $5 game easily in a traditional way, but selling stuff by Internet isn't exactly a new concept. We have had shareware that went back as far as Doom and it certainly was a successful model if you had a game that was good enough. Certain genres, like shooters, should have a very low cost of development. I found this shooter maker that's almost plug & play besides the part to generate enemy bullet patterns (presumably some programming is involved). You can simply insert sprites for bullets, image for stage backgrounds, and MP3 for music and you got everything you want in a shooter besides the actual shooting part. We have stuff like RPG Maker or Fighter Maker and while the capability of these game maker is pretty rudimentary, one would assume there should be more sophisticated tools out there for possible developers that simply the development time/cost.

 #128430  by SineSwiper
 Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:54 am
Imakeholesinu wrote:Yeah, what happened to the great Space SIms also? Privateer 2, Wing Commander...WHERE HAVE THEY GONE!!!
Jumpgate Evolution is coming out in a few months.

 #128436  by Flip
 Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:36 am
Im sad that there arent as many adventure games on the computer anymore. I loved Monkey Island, SpaceQuest, and Grim Fandango... The only ones i see now are flash based ones on sites like Newgrounds that are made by amateurs.

 #128437  by Julius Seeker
 Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:40 am
While download distribution services are not new, it is only recently that models have become great platforms for these non-mainstream and new genres and sub-genres.

 #128439  by Kupek
 Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:49 am
Flip wrote:Im sad that there arent as many adventure games on the computer anymore. I loved Monkey Island, SpaceQuest, and Grim Fandango... The only ones i see now are flash based ones on sites like Newgrounds that are made by amateurs.
This episode of Retronauts talks about Adventure games, and partly why they're not around anymore: http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3 ... 607_02.mp3

 #128482  by Chris
 Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:30 am
Flip wrote:Im sad that there arent as many adventure games on the computer anymore. I loved Monkey Island, SpaceQuest, and Grim Fandango... The only ones i see now are flash based ones on sites like Newgrounds that are made by amateurs.
yeah pretty much the only place to get them things is as downloads. gametap has the whole American Mcgee's Grimm (Which are actually quite entertaining) and of course the sam and max seasons. but yeah it's pretty much that and the adventure/rpg hybrid that is Penny arcade adventures

 #128486  by Zeus
 Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:22 am
Graphical technology definitely has a large effect on genres. Mario's mustache is a classic example but so is something like Wolfenstein. It didn't exist until the graphic technology was capable of displaying enemies coming towards you (or at least the illusion of it). What graphics are capable of drives general design ideas for the innovators.

But there is also the maturation of the industry and their audience. That's how something like GTA comes about. It's quite complex in terms of design and it takes a certain "sophistication" in the player to a) play and enjoy and b) desire and request such games.

It is also the maturation of the industry that also left behind a large segment of the population. Some people (ie. many Wii owners) only want simple games, ones that provide a simple diversion. We're seeing a kind of reinvogoration of the platform and shooter genres (look how many shooters are on XBLA right now) through the downloadable markets (do you think Braid would have done well or Bionic Commando Rearmed or Mega Man 9 would have even been made without XBLA or Wiiwaire?).

I guess you can call this explosion of the "casual" game market and reinvogoration of some old genres as further maturation of the industry. Instead of just having technology drive the types of games that are made we're starting to see the publishers and developers innovate without technology.