The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • difficulty and accessibility

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #141536  by Don
 Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:18 pm
Inspired from the thread about why people don't complete games. I'm going to only focus on not completing a game due to difficulty. If it sucks in some other way, I'm not going to worry about it. I'm also going to assume difficulty comes from a well-known source, whether it's trying to do a jump in Mario or avoiding lasers of doom in Mega Man. That is, the difficulty isn't created by the fact that you just came up with a mechanism nobody has ever seen before.

I have some further assumptions that skill at most game is:

1. Innate, or at least
2. Cannot be significantly improved without significant effort

That is to say if you want to stop everything you're doing in your life and be good at a Mega Man game, or Street Fighter, or whatever, you can probably do a lot better but there's really no reason to assume anybody is actually going to do this. Whatever skill you started with is most likely going to stay the same unless the game is so good to warrant you spending more time to learn about it.

Let's go to one of the most expensive arcade quarter quencher I can remember: House of the Dead. Though part of the reason is because it costs $1 to play in most place, this game has remained as a mainstay in places like Gameworks so it's quarter-crunching power is considerable. From looking at the arcade I'd say most people (myself included) has no chance of beating Magician on 1 credit, let alone the entire game. Yes I know you're supposed to hit the part on his arm that isn't covered by armor to stop most of his attacks, but the point is most people still can't do it even if they know where the weak points are.

And yet House of the Dead is beaten trivially if you have enough quarters. Does that make the accomplishment of beating the game with 1 credit less significant? I don't know about you but I'm always quite impressed when I see someone who can beat House of the Dead on one credit even though I always relied on the 'throw money at it' strategy. Likewise if the game is ported to console, it doesn't make the accomplishment any less. There's also a high score system and it's pretty clear not continuing is needed for any shot at a good score.

Street Fighter 2 comes to mind as another reasonably balanced game. Now since you continue at the beginning of a round, it is in theory always possible to get into an impossible fight relative to your skill. But the requirement for the best ending is set pretty low, and even on the 8 star setting, M. Bison isn't so powerful that you'll get immediately bulldozed without a chance. This is quite different from some of the fighting games that puts you up against an equivalent of Shin Akuma as the final boss. Shin Akuma is clearly a boss designed for a pretty hardcore fighting game player, and it is entirely possible an average player will never come close to beating him. Now that's fine as long as beating him is not a prerequisite for seeing the whole game, but too many games seem to get this wrong. The funny thing is that Street Fighter has a Shin Akuma, but he's usually not tied to any necessary part. It's usually a fight you do purely for the sake of saying you can do it. If you can never beat Shin Akuma, there's no loss for you so far as what the game has to offer.

On the opposite spectrum we have Mega Man, especially the original ones. Mega Man 1 doesn't even allow continues, and for the NES ones you always get send back to the beginning of the Wily stages. I'm not sure which one where you started getting your energy back after dying, but the first few do not have this and you can get into an absurd situation where even if you had 9 lives left, if you somehow used up most of your energy without beating the boss, then you can no longer beat the boss at all (Mega Man 2 comes to mind where the boss is only vulnerable to the bubble shot). And this is clearly by design. If you can continue through out the first 8 bosses there's no reason why Wily stages are any different. There's no reason why your weapon energy shouldn't be refilled after you die. It's purely a design roadblock designed to keep you from succeeding.

Every game should have some kind of trivial setting that offers everything the game has to offer, with the option for adding signficiant difficulty if the player chooses to. I believe MGS has a setting where if you're spotted you instantly die. I heard that's supposed to make you a better player, but I suspect an average player would find this to be really retarded if this option was forced to be on. There should be a reasonable scoring system so that if you want to just beat the game, you can and you'll be able to see just how much you can improve. God mode inflicts a 90% penalty on scoring in TIE Fighter, but you still get a score. Of course it will never come close to someone who is playing the game without God mode, so if you care about stuff like that and want to get better, you'll go without it. But the guys who don't care can just God mode their way through the game, since it's actually somewhat hard at some point, especially in the expansion.

 #141564  by SineSwiper
 Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:54 pm
On that note, the new Castlevania game is fucking hard.

 #141572  by Julius Seeker
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:42 am
Castlevania 3 is a little different. There are multiple paths to take through the game. Some paths are more difficult than others. The player doesn't really know which paths are going to be the easiest to get through until some experimentation is done. There is also a choice of characters involved which include Trevor, Sypha, Grant, and Alucard; each with unique abilities. The ultimate goal is to make it to Dracula and defeat him, but getting there is the key.

Super Mario Brothers 3. The most rewarding play experience comes from finishing each game world through regular play. They're all interesting and each stage has unique features about it that separate it from the others (unlike any other 2D Mario game) The player does have access to a series of items, that can be acquired through play and bonuses, that can make finishing stages worlds a trivial task. The game starts off fairly easy, but it gets up to difficulty levels that give all but highly practiced players A LOT of difficulty. It's a game both accessible and difficult, all in the main game. As a player, I begin to feel the burn of difficulty on the sky level, but I don't struggle until pipe land; and bowser's world to this day gets me to use power-items to get through.

Incidently, Mario 3 and Castlevania 3 are to this day two of my alltime favourite games.

 #141581  by Don
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:22 pm
I remember Langrisser 4 if you accidentally went on path C you're probably going to die horribly unless you really understood how the game works, though to be fair it is not exactly easy to accidentally get on that path (have to be able to beat Emily with Angelina which is really, really hard). Hard mode on Langrisser 5 seems to be pretty much unbeatable without cheat codes because there are a few guys on the first couple of scenario that have stats that are simply way too high to be defeated. Variable difficulty isn't bad but sometimes they're often not labeled and it's also not clear how you even trigger these stuff.

I don't think I ever beat SMB3 without using the warp zones because it takes too long. Here you got the same problem: no continues, so you really don't want to play through for an hour or more continously and then mess up and die only to start over. I suppose you can just get to 99 lives at 1-2 or something like that, but that's a very lame method. Of course part of it is probably because there were no save points back then so that's a design issue. That said, because you could get 99 lives pretty trivially in SMB3, it's always an option. After you beat the game you also get like a gazillion of those infinite flying things which makes it a lot easier to go back and see the worlds you missed.

 #141583  by Julius Seeker
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:50 pm
There were continues. If a player died, any regular levels, bonus stages, and toad houses completed by that player would reset and the player would be returned to the start of the world with 4 lives. If a castle was completed, it will remain destroyed, I also believe any doors unlocked on the map will remain unlocked, any boulders destroyed will remain destroyed. I don't think Hammer Brothers respawn either. The player gets to keep all the acquired items.


There's also the coin castle in Pipe World where the player can just loop around and collect hundreds of coins indefinitely. That's a good late game place to get lots of extra lives.

The game is incredibly difficult to complete without the super-power ups, but I still find it one of the most rewarding gaming experiences to complete the Pipe World, and then land in Bowser's Realm. I enjoy the challenge =) I don't think I ever went through the game from beginning to end successfully more than once (if even once) during my childhood; I do vaguely recall doing it before though.

 #141585  by Chris
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:02 pm
I want to see don play the brilliance of Demons Souls. which has become one of my favorite and most rewarding games this year.....challenge and fun

 #141586  by Zeus
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:10 pm
SineSwiper wrote:On that note, the new Castlevania game is fucking hard.
Which one, Adventure Rebirth?

 #141591  by Shrinweck
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:06 pm
Planescape Torment was good in this way because you could never die. If your hp hit 0 your companions would take you to the nearest safe house and your lack of mortality would kick in and heal you. Nifty little system. The only game overs were getting to the end of the game, being burned alive (although I don't think there was a way for this to ever happen in the game), and being imprisoned forever.

 #141596  by Eric
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:53 pm
SineSwiper wrote:On that note, the new Castlevania game is fucking hard.
What new Castlevania game? Or do you mean some old Castlevania game that you're just getting around to playing making it new for you? :P

 #141598  by Julius Seeker
 Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:01 pm
Zeus wrote:
SineSwiper wrote:On that note, the new Castlevania game is fucking hard.
Which one, Adventure Rebirth?
That one's not out yet, otherwise I would have it =)

 #141609  by Zeus
 Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:28 am
Julius Seeker wrote:
Zeus wrote:
SineSwiper wrote:On that note, the new Castlevania game is fucking hard.
Which one, Adventure Rebirth?
That one's not out yet, otherwise I would have it =)
Oh, I'm all over that game as well. I adored the original on the GB. It was the only game I got of the launch titles when I first got my system and it was amazing.

I hear the Contra Rebirth game is excellent too. Konami's doin' well with these remakes. I hope we see more and more of them (prays for a Kid Icarus remake).

I'd also love to see Capcom continue the Mega Man and MMX remakes as downloadables for XBLA. They were amazing.

 #141617  by SineSwiper
 Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:45 am
Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia, which is the last Castlevania game to come out to the States, and is therefore the "newest". (Castlevania Judgment is some stupid fighting game, and doesn't count.)

Until Adventure Rebirth comes out to the States, or until I learn how to read Japanese, that is not the "newest" game.

 #141632  by Zeus
 Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:14 pm
Rebirth is coming out very, very soon so a lot of us thought we just missed the release date.

Oh right, I forgot, it's coming for the Wii like Judgement did. As far as you're concerned, those aren't even releases at all.