Chokecraft 2

[Flip]

Its nice to see that SC2 decided to add some real world military tactics into its game, but man, why did they focus on chokes so much?... I know in BW you were also able to take advantage of position, but i never remember it being to such a high degree.

EVERY 1on1 map starts you off in a location with a choke. I applaud the consistency, but couldnt there be some variety? In WC3 it was nice that some maps had multiple entry points and/or flat starting points to mix up the strategy. There is not one map like this in SC2, therefore the Terran, for example, can do the exact same wall off every game. I feel as if the designers couldnt find a way to balance the game in an open map and thus had to keep it so restricted with chokes.

Seeing as how chokes are so important now, it would have been cool to see some other real world implementation. Yes, there is height, sort of, but why do the higher units not deal more damage? Why cant flanking cause more damage or attacking from behind? These were things i was hoping to see improved upon in a second installment of a game, but i was disappointed.

Lets not even mention that there is no new race. WC3 managed to pack in 2 new races and balanced it great. That includes the difficulty of doing so with so many different hero abilities. The amount of units and heroes in a balanced game like WC3 is staggering, so there is no excuse for not having a 4th race or more units in a game sequel.

I suppose bases were easier to defend in WC3 since there was warping and the town halls all had some built in defense, so then are chokes just always needed in SC2 and i should shut my trap? There is no possible other way to make a SC game without choke points?

I refuse to believe that and think this game is simply lazy. They threw together a limited amount of units with the same ol same ol maps and will sell millions of copies and the inevitable 2 expansions that will really make the game better.

I do have fun playing the beta of this game, but its a little exhausting when you run into a Terran/Protoss ramp wall everytime and Zerg is always going fast mutas just like BW.

This game makes me miss WC3. I hated creeping and hero items, but everything else was fantastic. I might not even buy SC2 after the beta, im pretty burnt out after only a week of the same same same same same same.

[Eric]

They can't change a lot because of Korea.

[Don]

Why should being on higher ground offer any advantage in a world where you have instant communication across battlefield and weapons that obviously go at speed much faster than gravity could reasonably affect? Why would flanking have any effect on a game where all units clearly have 360 awareness of themselves and every other source of information instantly?

Blizzard RTS aren't really strategy games. They're more like action games that pretend to be strategy games. Having chokepoint will tend to extend the time the game has to go on before it ends and that presumably makes it more interesting.

[SineSwiper]

They can't change a lot because of Korea.

Explain.

[Eric]

They can't change a lot because of Korea.

Explain.

National sport and all that jazz.

[Flip]

I see what Eric means. Compared to Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3 was a whole new game. Two new races, heroes, items, creeping... they got really creative and innovative with the RTS genre.

But, since SC2 has been such a popular 'sport' in Korea, Blizz doesnt want to F with the old formula and ruin their empire. Its shouldnt be surprising that SC2 is just a remake of SC1 with only a handful of new units and the same tired gimmicks. Its what they love and Blizz will make more bazillions off of it.

[Eric]

I'm so tired it hurts to write, so thanks.

[Shrinweck]

Yeah the game is designed to be a clicks per minute type of thing which, I imagine, alienates a great deal of the original fan base.

[Don]

Yeah the game is designed to be a clicks per minute type of thing which, I imagine, alienates a great deal of the original fan base.

That depends. Click per minute appeals to people play the game professionally, though it also appeals to normal gamers because Starcraft at its core is not a strategy game. Your units are basically dumber than dirt that cannot take care of themselves if left to their own devices, so there has to be something you do that makes the difference and it's probably the click per minute. For example the average guy might not be able to do move units all over the place at the same time like the professional Korean guys but you at least try to click on them to say focus fire on the same unit.

I'd say that professional Starcraft isn't really what made the game popular, though. I think the fact that there is some semblance of strategy, even if it's minimal, is what makes the game good, because if you really want to just be good at a game that is determined by how fast you click you might as well play a FPS. In some sense the original Starcraft lacks easily usable chokepoints except for a few select maps, which means it is entirely possible your do have a game that is decided mostly by strategy. I think one of the top players was writing a strategy guide for Big Game Hunters and it was like get 36 control of of 1/1 upgrade basic units and charge, since BGH doesn't have great chokepoints you're almost certainly going to be able to overpower another guy that is trying to hide and tech up regardless of how good he is. And I think it's because you actually have strategy like that that you can actually call Starcraft a strategy game sometime. Chokepoints might as well something like 'no rush for 15 minutes' and yeah you get to use more units with that kind of gimmick but why should anyone be allowed to tech up with impunity if it cannot even defeat a 36 control charge? If you look at the Korean games a lot of the time you'll see one side hopelessly outmatched but relying on some micro or AI trick or map positional trick to compensate. Some people might say that's what makes the game good but I think it's the exact opposite. If someone outmanuevered you in a bad spot you shouldn't just rely on what amounts to AI glitches and nonsensical rules (like it's really hard to see uphills when you got the tech level of Starcraft, or that laser weapons become somehow inaccurate over elevation).

[Shrinweck]

In all honesty I'm mostly buying it for the single player campaign and what will hopefully be a thriving mod community comparable to the original and WarCraft 3. Ladder games have never been what drive me to play RTS games.

[Anarky]

They can't change a lot because of Korea.

Explain.

National sport and all that jazz.

This is bullshit first off. Kespa has been trying to extort Blizzard forever on their game. Kespa is the reason SC2 is getting an AO rating in Korea, it is because Blizzard doesn't want to play ball with them. SC2 is different enough in my opinion

As far as choke points... If you're Zerg all you have to do is use Banelings to burst open the Terran front door. Terrans can use siege tanks and a com-sat station (or flying unit) to see onto the higher ground. There are plenty of other strategies for each race.

Also, we only have a small amount of maps still... It's a beta...

[Flip]

Yeah i baneling bust everyone for the most part. Im a high level gold league and i think im about to get to platinum soon so i see most of the good player strategies and i play as Zerg.

Against Terran, i always baneling their front wall. I have the timing down pretty darn good to where they usually only have a few marauders out and havent been able to tech to air just yet. 99% of Terran players use supply depots in their wall and thats the weak point. If they choked off with a factory and barracks it wouldnt be possible to get through unless you used a crap ton of banelings. Most ramps cant even use that combination of building to wall off so you will have depots which is great. A bunker behind the depot would prevent me from getting in, though. Terrans looove to wall in and tech hard to rush you with air or build up their marine, marauder, medic (MMM) ball of doom. I can usually end it before that happens. My build gets my queen and first zerglings out fast enough that reaper harassment isnt an issue and never works as well as they want it to.

Against other Zerg, its a race to see who can get the most roaches faster. I have a pretty good roach build and usually pull this one out, too. Sometimes speedling harass can decide the game early, but more often than not its a fast expand and roaches that win the day. If i feel comfortable, i might just keep on with the speedlings and tech to mutas, but not that often.

Protoss are my hardest matches and of course there happens to be a bagillion protoss players on battle.net. Last night i think i had 7 our of 8 be protoss at one point. Luckily most of those were on maps with destructible rock back doors that i could take down and sneak in early for an easy win, but the ones that werent i think i lost. Im not against cheesing it up and sneaking in the back door with speedlings, be smart and put a pylon back there and then i would get owned. The problem is protoss just kill ne with every combination. If they wall up and tech to void rays im fucked. If they 4 gate zealot/stalker rush me, im fucked. If they build up for an immortal timing push, im fucked. There is nothing i can get fast enough to counter this crap, which is really annoying. I have started to baneling protoss lately, too, and it does work kinda well. The problem is they usually wall in with 2 gateways and they leave a tiny corridor that they only have to put a few zealots on hold in to prevent me from running in with zerglings. Just a few zealots can hold that choke forever, its total BS. You would need 20 banelines to kill a gateway so that isnt effective. You need to kill the zealots with banes and then run in, but it isnt as easy as against Terran.

Yes, most of my strategies revolves aronnd winning in the first 10-15 minutes, but it has to be or Zerg gets rolled on. If you let protoss get their tech you are screwed, if terran gets seige tanks or a big MMM ball, you are totally screwed. Hydras are a lot slower than in SC1 and are good, but still kinda suck. Mutas have been nerfed like crazy and are good for harass, but not at fighting anything, and the late zerg spell casters or broodlords take too long to be effective or have crappy spells.

Sometimes im able to macro win with 5 bases to their 2 and starve them, but thats very unusual. If they decide to push out, most times it doesnt matter what i have, they will win the fight and get their expansion.

[Eric]

Void Rays are broken in bulk, Force Field has no counter, it's retarded, I've found Protoss to be the most OP race almost all of beta, and it shows, they've gotten nerfed in all 12 beta patches.

Terran M&M ball is scary vs zerg, but infestors and banelings wreak havoc on them along with the basic zerg make-up.

I've also noticed Terran players using a 2nd barracks, or maybe 4 supply depots up front for their wall-ins now.

Zergling at higher levels I found was a zergling vs zergling fest, you could go for roach, but it would slow down your teching to mutas, and the first one to muta usually wins that match up. Speedlings with surround on open ground absolutely destroy roaches. Post patch, Roaches are 2 food, so I expect to see even less roaches in the future. -_-

As of the last patch I've found Terran => Protoss > Zerg.

Zerg is the weakest race at the moment, they just don't have alot of options outside of go muta, keep the opponent in their base and take the map. Protoss & Terran have all these devastating unit combinations that just destroy you in a head-2-head fight, so Zerg players need to....outzerg you which isn't really reliable against good players.

Terran has quietly gotten buffed regularly, and they're also the simplest race to play, even easier then Zerg imo, because their army composition is so simple to pull off. M^3 bioball and branch off into whatever you want from there, Ghosts vs Protoss ground/casters, Viking vs Colossi, Raven for additional ground or air dominance, Banshees if they're slacking in AA, nukes for map control, BCs for ultimate tech.

Protoss is actually a little harder to play, but that timed early push with 2-3 Immortals, Sentries, Zealots, Stalkers, with the Sentries cutting off armies with Force Field(Broken), and reducing all ranged damage taken by 2 is just devastating. It also seems really popular at the moment for Protoss players to just block off with sentries and tech to star gate and void rays, because the damage ramps up so fast when you get those things in bulk. I literally saw a live stream of a player with like 30 void rays just destroying a Terran army of BCs, Marines, Vikings, Ravens, because they insta gibbed just about everything in 2 seconds. And yes, Protoss @ Critical mass with a variety of Tier 3 tech is the scariest thing in the game. Terran fairs better then say zerg, strictly because of EMP, but if those templar can get some feedback on those ghosts it's just pure hell

[Anarky]

Protoss are just over powered. Void Rays, and now the attack move phoenix boost makes them perfect to kill mutas.

Zerg need something, and some people say its the lurker but dunno.

As a Terran player, i personally think they're the most balanced.

[SineSwiper]

Void Rays are broken in bulk, Force Field has no counter, it's retarded, I've found Protoss to be the most OP race almost all of beta, and it shows, they've gotten nerfed in all 12 beta patches.

...

As of the last patch I've found Terran => Protoss > Zerg.

Zerg is the weakest race at the moment

Oh, how the tables have turned...

[Eric]

Protoss are just over powered. Void Rays, and now the attack move phoenix boost makes them perfect to kill mutas.

Zerg need something, and some people say its the lurker but dunno.

As a Terran player, i personally think they're the most balanced.

The lurker wouldn't work in SC2, melee is ass in this game.

It's the reason Zerg Tier 3 is a joke aside from Brood Lords. Ultralisks fall over, and zerglings with attack speed upgrade are just worthless late game to blobs of ranged, and still lose straight up to any other melee.

[SineSwiper]

Hmmm, sounds like the same story: Blizzard can't balance worth a shit.

I guess the main question is: Despite the issues, is it worth buying?

[Don]

I always thought the question should be is there any mods that are worth playing over the game itself.

[Eric]

Match Fixing Scandal in SC1! :p

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=125601

[Flip]

Wow, the latest is a guy walled himself in and then massed nothing but stalkers which completely murdered me. Zerglings, hydras and mutas melted to blinking stalkers. This is worse than dragoon massing was, Protoss can literally do anything and beat zerg.