Pac versus Lebron in a fight

[Don]

Saw this in ESPN and this seems like a more intriguing thread than most sports stuff. I assume here they're not in a boxing match (LeBron obviously has no formal training in that) and they're probably not trying to kill each other either (otherwise you can try to say snap LeBron's neck and that'd mostly negate whatever physical advantage he may have). From what I understand LeBron is almost twice as heavy (140 vs 260 lbs) and 14 inches taller, and obviously both are well conditioned athletes at their prime. It seems like most people go with Pac since he has the experience, but it seems to me when you're that much stronger you can just try to grab the guy or something and overpower him with sheer strength. I mean we're not talking about a sumo wrestler here. Just because LeBron has no training in fighting doesn't mean he doesn't know how to hit someone, and sure maybe there are more effective way to hits people, it seems to me when you're that much bigger you don't exactly need a good hit to knock your opponent out. When Shaq in his prime played basketball his defender pretty much goes flying if they touched any part of him and it's not always because the defenders are flopping, and the physical difference between Shaq and whoever is guarding him is much smaller compared to Lebron and Pac.

It seems to me people always pick the guy with the fighting experience (boxing/martial arts/whatever) over the guy who is a lot stronger, even on fights where you're clearly not allowed to try to kill/maim the other guy. I mean sure I can see a smaller guy break someone's leg or snap someone's neck and win, but then you might as well ask who will win between Solid Snake and a ninja. Assuming most people's idea of a fight involve hitting each other in nonlethal ways, I think the much stronger guy has a pretty good chance of beating a weaker but more skilled opponent. Sure I know there are strategy like hit and run or whatever, but usually those only make sense where there are rules.

[Kupek]

You know MMA exists, right? The beginning years of the UFC were not far off from what you describe.

First, "snapping someone's neck" is not easy. It's just as difficult to get a non-lethal rear-naked choke on someone as it is to snap their neck. You have to be in the same position as both, and if you just grab for someone's neck, you're opening yourself up to a whole range of attacks.

but it seems to me when you're that much stronger you can just try to grab the guy or something and overpower him with sheer strength.

Often not the case. I've rolled with guys who are much bigger and stronger than me (I'm about 6'1", 200 pounds; rolled with guys up to about 300 pounds), and I've had better positions and gotten submissions on them. (Once armbarred a former linebacker for VT.) If you're going to try to "just grab" someone, well, now you're in the wrestling, jiu-jitsu and judo world. Even a little bit of training in those can go a long way against someone with none.

Fighting is different - as are all sports. Being conditioned for one sport does not make you well conditioned for another sport. Being conditioned for basketball is very different from being conditioned for fighting. (Even being conditioned for boxing is very different than being conditioned for MMA.) If you add inexperience to the mix, that person is going to gas out real fast. People who don't know what they're doing try to use all of their strength all of the time, and you can only do that so long. Marius Pudzianowski is a phenomenal athlete who won the World's Strongest Man competition five times. Strongman competitions are different from olympic lifting and power lifting in that the events are often movement-based, so competitors need both enormous strength and great conditioning. Pudzianowski has had difficulty in MMA because he often gets absolutely exhausted quickly.

My point here is that absolute strength is not what matters. Sustained strength is what matters. And that comes from practice - both in terms of knowing when to use your strength, and building the fighting-specific conditioning. The "stronger" guy may not be stronger for long. I've rolled with were powerlifter-strong but may as well have been kittens after a minute.

Now, with that all said, with the enormous size difference, it's not a given that the smaller guy with more experience will win. If the smaller guy is very experienced, I'd go with him. If the smaller guy is only a little experienced, I wouldn't guess either way. Because at that point, you might as well debate the outcome of a coin flip.

[Don]

200 versus 300 pounds is a 50% difference, versus 140 versus 260 pound which is about a 90% difference in weight.

It's pretty clear that stamina doesn't scale up linearly to weight. There's no reason to assume just because you're 200 pounds, someone who is 400 pounds can take twice the punishment as you can, so once you're strong enough it's sufficient. But I'd think if you move down that much on the weight class you could get into a case where you're much weaker than the other guy, and in that case the guys with twice your weight could be twice as durable. Of course that doesn't guaranteed victory but it's a pretty significant hurdle to overcome. Weight classes exist in boxing and MMA, presumably because it's not exactly fair to try to fight someone who is a lot heavier than you. Would a featherweight stand a chance against a bad heavyweight? Sure you can say LeBron probably isn't even as good as a bad heavyweight due to inexperience, but he's probably not going to be that much worse either.

[Julius Seeker]

A massive size advantage can mean very little without proper training. Even for people who are professional fighters themselves.





And we know that Pacquaio has KO power. It's really a matter of how many shots Lebron's jaw can take before getting knocked down.

[Kupek]

Wait, we're talking about Pacquio? Manny Pacquio? I thought it was some other basketball player who had the nickname Pac. Pacquio would kill him.

[Zeus]

Wait, we're talking about Pacquio? Manny Pacquio? I thought it was some other basketball player who had the nickname Pac. Pacquio would kill him.

With one arm tied behind his back........while suffering from gout in his right big toe