The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • rock/paper/scissor doesn't work as a model for strategy game

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #158089  by Don
 Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:58 am
I've noticed that games try to go this route rarely ever works, even though this is a staple in virtually anything that remotely features strategy elements. I'm not saying you can't have things that counter certain things, but if you're talking about a strictly rock paper scissors system where A always beats B which always beat C which always beats A that works. Beyond being too simple and just turning everything into a 'if you see B use A', it's usually too simple and not reflective of whatever they're trying to establish. Let's take wargames since those have the easiest parallel. There really was never a rock paper scissor model in war. For the most part ranged units always ruled war (I read that Artillery is responsible for more death than all the other weapons combined in history). If you got a bow you're usually a lot better off than the guy without the bow, not to mention you can still carry a sword on the side at the same time. The guys on the horse/tank are usually way better off than any guy who isn't in one of those things.

The balancing factor should be COST, not something you saw in a movie somewhere that tells you Pike > Horse. Horses are expensive to raise (they eat more than the average human does), and tanks are a lot more expensive than a car to build. This is something that's always problematic with the later Civs where they sort of just homogenize the cost of any military unit to be roughly the same (and the earlier Civs you just use the same type of unit). I guess you're loosely supposed to have like melee > anti horse > horse > melee except it doesn't work half of the time and anti-horse units tend to be your main unit for a significant part of the game. If you take ROTK 11, which starts with the same model (horse > halberd > pike > horse), you'll quickly find that it's really (horse > bow > all, except on rough terrain), but horses are extremely expensive, easily 2-3 times more expensive than any other unit in the standard mode and still about 50% more expensive in the expansion even if you research horse breeder under tech and it leaves you off from other interesting tech you can get instead. So basically two armies almost always start off with only horses and the side that runs out of money will start replacing horseman with pikeman because pikeman are cheap, and this usually lets you at least defend even if you're slightly behind. Occasionally you'll be able to fight in rough terrain where you can actually win, but for the most part pikeman versus horseman is a matter of attrition. After all Pikeman have no possible way to pursue horseman, so unless you got a complete trap in rough terrain, usually the most you can do force the horseman to retreat but since moving units is costly, that might be all you need to come out ahead in resources. If you actually fight head on, horseman usually take less losses even against their counter unit, but since horseman are extremely expensive, it's still okay. Of course the guy with more money than you might decide to make some equally cheap halberdier for your pikeman, but then at that point you'll go back to bulding horseman that tears up halberdier and have no obvious weakness. And if the guy has so much money that he can just keep on building Horseman, you're probably already doomed since he'd have more than 3X your economy to pull that off.

In Daisenryaku for the Sega Genesis, the rock paper scissor model is roughly tank > anti air > helicopter > tank. There are a few uber units like battleships and F/A18 that pretty much are > all but they're stupidly expensive, you'd never be able to field them in any meaningful numbers unless you already have the game won. Additionally infantry pretty much counter everything but tanks cost effectively, since it costs next to nothing to recruit a guy and give him a Stinger, even though infantry absolutely won't close to trade numbers with helicopters but we're in a world where we've no concern for stuff like popular opinion of sending entire battalions to their doom against a superior air force. For the most part the game boils down to amassing tanks because if you ever build a lot of helicopters you know you can't possibly push into enemy territory to them because you'd just see a swarm of infantry with Stingers come out to defend it, but of course you don't want to just get into a tank war if you're against someone with a better tank than you (USA, for example), so you'll see force composition change depending on how deep or not you're fighting at someone since infantry are dirt cheap but takes a while to get anywhere, so if you're on the defense you can build helicopters knowing their infantry won't be able to shoot it down, but if you're on the offense you got to build more tanks because eventually you'll see a bunch of cheap infantry with Stingers showing up. Sometimes you can get cute with Fighter/Bombers but besides being vulnerable to anti-air, they're even more vulnerable to the Stinger swarm since jet planes are way more expensive than anything besides ships and it doesn't take too many Stingers to shoot them down (which I think is even correct).

It should be perfectly viable to amass whatever your most capable of unit is, and the only thing that stops you should be the cost. Amassing tanks does work in real life as long as they're reasonably supported. What stops you from doing this should be the economic aspect of the game, not strategic.
 #158100  by Julius Seeker
 Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:53 pm
I completely agree on the point made about pikes/spears and Sid Meier's Civilization games. These types of soldiers were most effective at fighting other infantry, swordsmen in particular. In fact it was cavalry that actually defeated the general pikeman formations. I will give two historical examples of great significance where this occurred:
1. The Battle of Chaeronea in Greece where Philip of Macedonia sent in the Companion Cavalry to out-maneuver and annihilate the Greek forces.
2. The battle of Adrianople where the Eastern Roman Army were veteran soldiers armed with long pikes, faced a starving and outnumbered Gothic army, and ended up utterly crushed by the Gothic cavalry who were able to outmaneuver the Roman pikemen.
 #158103  by Don
 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:14 pm
Well I'm sure a horse can kick a normal person to death pretty easily (they're bigger than us and quite a bit stronger) so any attempt to somehow make horses *weak* is nonrealistic and it doesn't even lead to good game gameplay. I think most strategy game makers are too obsessed with making everything have a counter, ignoring that units that are effective in war historically have no counters. If you got a gun and they don't they can't really counter that. The F22 in the games that feature them tends to have godlike stats and the only thing that prevents you from using them is that they're stupidly expensive to field. Since in most strategy game morality is straight out of the window you'd get stuff like mechanized infantry cannot be countered by anything besides mechanized infantry, because IEDs are useless if you just shoot everyone that doesn't look like your guys (then they wouldn't have anyone left to plant IEDs).

I think too many strategy games ignore the cost dimension. In Civ 5 a horseman basically costs about the same as a pikeman (slight difference but not enough to matter). If you look at the mechanized infantry unit in the American army their equipment costs an absolute stupid amount of money to make, which is why IED stops them pretty well not because it does mega damage on mechanized infantry but rather if you got a vehicle that costs $5 million to make and you can hurt it with a bomb that takes $50 to make then you probably will win in a war of attrition in the long run. It is believed the UAVs will counter most US anti-air units simply because some of their anti-air batteries cost more to fire a missile than the estimated value it takes to make a UAV, but current generation technology UAVs definitely do not have the ability to evade any reasonable anti-air weapons. It counters them because UAVs are dirt cheap compared to manned aircraft so if your UAV costs less than their missiles, you don't really care if their missile hits you 100% of the time.

Of course I guess if you make certain expensive all powerful units in a game like Civ then you'd never have a chance of winning against the computer because they have ridiculous resource advantage. But then I don't think it was ever a good idea to just give computer ridiculous advantages to make up for its utter lack of ability to do anything remotely intelligent.