So there seems to be a new expansion focus around the Planeswalkers, so who are the most memorable ones for you? I haven't played MTG outside of DOTP for a long time because it's a huge time/money suck, but I always find the iconic Planewalkers interesting. I like Jace, Chandra (who looks really cool in the new art), and Sorin. They're like the only MTG characters that seems interesting outside of Urza and Serra, and I'd say that's mostly because there are a lot of cards named after the last 2.
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MTG Planeswalkers
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Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
By "new expansion focus" what do you mean?
The planeswalkers are as important as they have been ever since they were created as a card type roughly ten years ago. There are no new planeswalkers in Tarkir that are game-changers, but there are plenty of older ones that are.
If you actually play, the most important planeswalkers are Ugin and Karn, because they're played in nasty top-level decks that blow up entire boards in a turn or two - and Jace, of course, the only planeswalker so dominant that one of his forms was banned, though none of the other forms are that important in the meta right now. (However, nearly every planeswalker is powerful and potentially a broken card with the right combos; for instance you mention Chandra, whose most recent incarnation allows you to fork any instant/sorcery easily - I'm sure you can imagine how powerful that can be as a concept.)
If you're talking lore - the planeswalkers' importance goes way way back before this expansion; way back before planeswalker was a card type - it was invented along with Antiquities back in 1994, as best I recall, with the Urza/Mithra battle that produced the "Urzatron" (the Urza lands) and Mithra's Factory, though it may even go back to Alpha in the simple "players are planeswalkers" sense.
The planeswalkers are as important as they have been ever since they were created as a card type roughly ten years ago. There are no new planeswalkers in Tarkir that are game-changers, but there are plenty of older ones that are.
If you actually play, the most important planeswalkers are Ugin and Karn, because they're played in nasty top-level decks that blow up entire boards in a turn or two - and Jace, of course, the only planeswalker so dominant that one of his forms was banned, though none of the other forms are that important in the meta right now. (However, nearly every planeswalker is powerful and potentially a broken card with the right combos; for instance you mention Chandra, whose most recent incarnation allows you to fork any instant/sorcery easily - I'm sure you can imagine how powerful that can be as a concept.)
If you're talking lore - the planeswalkers' importance goes way way back before this expansion; way back before planeswalker was a card type - it was invented along with Antiquities back in 1994, as best I recall, with the Urza/Mithra battle that produced the "Urzatron" (the Urza lands) and Mithra's Factory, though it may even go back to Alpha in the simple "players are planeswalkers" sense.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick Douglass
The next set, called Origins, is printing 5 new Planeswalker "flip" cards. Meaning, they enter the battlefield as a creature, but something can trigger them to flip the card over to its Planeswalker form. Right now, only Lilliana has been spoiled.
The other 4 will be Jace (blue), Nissa (green), Chandra (red), and Gideon (white). Which is weird, because i think the 5 original Planeswalkers had Garruck, instead of Nissa, and Ajani, instead of Gideon.
Historically, Jace and Lilliana have had the strongest prints to the point where, like Replay said, Jace the Mind Sculptor got banned in a few formats and Lilliana of the Veil sees heavy play in a few Modern decks. Ugin is the newest powerhouse that sees decent play in both Standard and Modern formats.
Personally, i think the Chandra cards are cool and the Jace's, but those are my favorite Magic colors so i'm biased. I dont really follow the lore, though.
The other 4 will be Jace (blue), Nissa (green), Chandra (red), and Gideon (white). Which is weird, because i think the 5 original Planeswalkers had Garruck, instead of Nissa, and Ajani, instead of Gideon.
Historically, Jace and Lilliana have had the strongest prints to the point where, like Replay said, Jace the Mind Sculptor got banned in a few formats and Lilliana of the Veil sees heavy play in a few Modern decks. Ugin is the newest powerhouse that sees decent play in both Standard and Modern formats.
Personally, i think the Chandra cards are cool and the Jace's, but those are my favorite Magic colors so i'm biased. I dont really follow the lore, though.
I think the creature version is before they become a planeswalker.
The books/other games have more on the lore though there was always a surprising amount of it based on text. For example, Chandra sets things on fire. That's pretty much all she does. The googles are there so that she can still see things clearly when they're on fire.
The white planeswalker has always been between Elspeth and Gideon and since Elspeth died sometime back that puts Gideon in front by default, at least until she gets resurrected. Garruk went to the dark side so he's not a suitable for the green guy anymore. Liliana is pretty much the de facto black planeswalker though I always thought Sorin was more interesting. Multicolor would be Nicol Bolas but he's always meant to be overpowered so it wouldn't be too interesting from both a story or gameplay point of view to have an expansion around him. In the DOTP versions, Nicol Bolas plays with 4 Mox Sapphire/Jet/Ruby which is hilariously broken, but you almost expect something like that because he's Nicol Bolas.
The books/other games have more on the lore though there was always a surprising amount of it based on text. For example, Chandra sets things on fire. That's pretty much all she does. The googles are there so that she can still see things clearly when they're on fire.
The white planeswalker has always been between Elspeth and Gideon and since Elspeth died sometime back that puts Gideon in front by default, at least until she gets resurrected. Garruk went to the dark side so he's not a suitable for the green guy anymore. Liliana is pretty much the de facto black planeswalker though I always thought Sorin was more interesting. Multicolor would be Nicol Bolas but he's always meant to be overpowered so it wouldn't be too interesting from both a story or gameplay point of view to have an expansion around him. In the DOTP versions, Nicol Bolas plays with 4 Mox Sapphire/Jet/Ruby which is hilariously broken, but you almost expect something like that because he's Nicol Bolas.
Don wrote:I think the creature version is before they become a planeswalker.
Flip wrote:Meaning, they enter the battlefield as a creature, but something can trigger them to flip the card over to its Planeswalker form.
Nice heads up Flip, I need to get me in on some of that flipwalker action.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassThat is indeed funny. I wonder what it was like to play in the early unlimited days where there was no such thing as a banned/restricted list and you could play with four of each Mox and four Lotuses if you had them.Don wrote: In the DOTP versions, Nicol Bolas plays with 4 Mox Sapphire/Jet/Ruby which is hilariously broken, but you almost expect something like that because he's Nicol Bolas.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassBy the way, as "planeswalkers that matter in play and lore both" go, Nicol is up there. He's not considered QUITE as broken as Ugin or Karn because he can't blow up an entire board the first turn he comes out, but if you give him three turns target player probably loses the game. I actually want him for my current deck.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassAnd sorry Don, I didn't realize you were talking about Origins and not Tarkir block, but I should have, kudos to Flip for the catch 
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassNicol Bolas is probably meant to be overwhelmingly powerful but that's why the casting cost for his card or related stuff is also pretty insane too. I think Cruel Ultamatium captures what they're trying to go for with Nicol Bolas more than his card, though Cruel Ultamatium is what happens when you failed Nicol Bolas for the last time, so it works out too.
You know, the irony about "insane casting costs" is that they really aren't anymore. I can get that eight mana for Nicol by turn four or five. I play decks at my local shop that can reliably Urzatron eight to ten to twelve colorless mana or even more for Wurmcoils/Ugin/even Emrakul by the same period.
The old conventional wisdom in Magic was that anything greater than two of a color plus three colorless was "too expensive", but that's just not true in Modern the way it is in Standard.
The old conventional wisdom in Magic was that anything greater than two of a color plus three colorless was "too expensive", but that's just not true in Modern the way it is in Standard.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassThey have Liliana's story up and there's this art of her pouring this potion to try to cure someone of disease, and the next one showing that guy turning into a zombie. Those should have a flavor text like: "Liliana found out she wasn't really good at this healing business fairly early on." on the card.
Feel free to apply to Wizards for a job, haha
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassWell the official flavor text is "Drink this, brother. It will bring you rest." -- Liliana Voss. Pretty ironic if have any idea of who Liliana is. It reminds me of the parody Saint Seiya where the Pope is selecting his successor so one of the trial was he'll play the role of a sick elderly person and see how they do when visiting the sick & poor, so Deathmask, the guy who drinks the souls of innocents and stuff, shows up and say, "Don't worry, the pain is going away soon." The Pope barely escapes with his life and of course Deathmask had this 'did I pass the test?' look.
Planeswalkers are indeed changing the game right now, Nicol is probably too expensive for his utility as you noted, I tried him - but an Ugin deck won our last Modern tournament, it can drop an Ugin by turn four on a God-draw.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassThe new Chandra Planewalker card set a record for the most number of times the word 'damage' was referred to on a card:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... eid=398423
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... eid=398423
Kinda underwhelmed by the flipwalkers so far. Chandra, the Firebrand, is far more playable and useful in my opinion than her flipwalker version.
In general they seem hard to flip and underpowered for the value when they are.
In general they seem hard to flip and underpowered for the value when they are.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassThey didn't seem too impressive but I guess they were designed to make sure someone didn't find a way to flip them on turn 2 before your opponent can possibly have anything that can deal with it short of something like a Hero's Downfall.
I think Origins is supposed to be available on the PC too as a standalone from the Magic client and they have a tendency to give you way underpowered cards for the standalone version, which really makes very little sense since the stonealone version usually has a limited capability and is closer to a single player game so that should be the one where you can have massively overpowered cards. Although there is limited multiplayer capability I don't think that'd replace Magic and if that's all it takes to dethrone MTG, something else would've already done it. I mean proxy is supposed to be allowed in MTG like you can just take an Island and cross it out and say 'Black Lotus' instead, but very few people did that and it's not like someone doing that costs you a sales of Black Lotus.
I think Origins is supposed to be available on the PC too as a standalone from the Magic client and they have a tendency to give you way underpowered cards for the standalone version, which really makes very little sense since the stonealone version usually has a limited capability and is closer to a single player game so that should be the one where you can have massively overpowered cards. Although there is limited multiplayer capability I don't think that'd replace Magic and if that's all it takes to dethrone MTG, something else would've already done it. I mean proxy is supposed to be allowed in MTG like you can just take an Island and cross it out and say 'Black Lotus' instead, but very few people did that and it's not like someone doing that costs you a sales of Black Lotus.
*sigh*
As I and a friend were discussing last night...the notion that cards should require getting to turn four or five before becoming truly powerful is all well and good, but it runs into one big problem.
That isn't how New Phyrexia works, and New Phyrexia dominates the modern meta and will continue to as long as it's in play. Phyrexian mana dominates every fast deck archetype, and it will continue to, because that's how Phyrexian mana (pay 2 life instead of 1 colored mana, for those out of the meta) works. And even if you GET to turn four or five and flip the flipwalkers, it's probably because instead of a New Phyrexia-based deck, you're up against one of the "slower" control deck archetypes - which are almost universally Eldrazi-based, running either Urzatron or some other way to "cheat" out Emrakul or some annihilator-x horror on turn four, just as you flip Nissa or Chandra at last and realize with a sinking feeling that in the modern meta a planeswalker with balanced abilities is useless against a 15/15 indestructible horror that just made you sacrifice six of the seven lands you needed to flip Nissa - or your entire board if you were playing Chandra and didn't kill the other player before turn four.
I'm definitely going to keep playing, and AS a standalone or draft set I like Origins - but it's representative of the problem that's plagued the game since the first five expansions: you cannot "fix" a game with balance problems by nerfing every set released after a certain date while continuing to keep all the overpowered broken old cards legal to play.
As I and a friend were discussing last night...the notion that cards should require getting to turn four or five before becoming truly powerful is all well and good, but it runs into one big problem.
That isn't how New Phyrexia works, and New Phyrexia dominates the modern meta and will continue to as long as it's in play. Phyrexian mana dominates every fast deck archetype, and it will continue to, because that's how Phyrexian mana (pay 2 life instead of 1 colored mana, for those out of the meta) works. And even if you GET to turn four or five and flip the flipwalkers, it's probably because instead of a New Phyrexia-based deck, you're up against one of the "slower" control deck archetypes - which are almost universally Eldrazi-based, running either Urzatron or some other way to "cheat" out Emrakul or some annihilator-x horror on turn four, just as you flip Nissa or Chandra at last and realize with a sinking feeling that in the modern meta a planeswalker with balanced abilities is useless against a 15/15 indestructible horror that just made you sacrifice six of the seven lands you needed to flip Nissa - or your entire board if you were playing Chandra and didn't kill the other player before turn four.
I'm definitely going to keep playing, and AS a standalone or draft set I like Origins - but it's representative of the problem that's plagued the game since the first five expansions: you cannot "fix" a game with balance problems by nerfing every set released after a certain date while continuing to keep all the overpowered broken old cards legal to play.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassLong story short: our discussion basically revolved around the notion that New Phyrexia/Eldrazi are to Origins/Modern in general what Antiquities, Arabians, Legends, and Unlimited were to Revised and every later expansion :
Game-breaking sets that preserve the value of older cards for older players by destroying the value of newer cards for newer players.
Yeah, great, Emrakul's going to continue to be a $50 card, and Gitaxian Probe a $3.50 common - but that's pretty much by ensuring that no rare in Origins will be worth more than $20 if that, and no common worth more than $1 or so. That's my prediction, at least. There might be real Modern-playable cards in the thing somewhere, but if so I haven't seen them.
It's really bad for the game; when Fallen Empires came out back in the day and it became clear that it was the first truly crap expansion that couldn't hold a candle to anything released before it, players left in droves.
I wonder if MTG is setting itself up with a similar Modern exodus via the fact that decks based on New Phyrexia and Eldrazi just about universally trounce anything not featuring Phyrexian mana or indestructible annihilator Eldrazi horrors.
Game-breaking sets that preserve the value of older cards for older players by destroying the value of newer cards for newer players.
Yeah, great, Emrakul's going to continue to be a $50 card, and Gitaxian Probe a $3.50 common - but that's pretty much by ensuring that no rare in Origins will be worth more than $20 if that, and no common worth more than $1 or so. That's my prediction, at least. There might be real Modern-playable cards in the thing somewhere, but if so I haven't seen them.
It's really bad for the game; when Fallen Empires came out back in the day and it became clear that it was the first truly crap expansion that couldn't hold a candle to anything released before it, players left in droves.
I wonder if MTG is setting itself up with a similar Modern exodus via the fact that decks based on New Phyrexia and Eldrazi just about universally trounce anything not featuring Phyrexian mana or indestructible annihilator Eldrazi horrors.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassI remember Fallen Empire was an expansion with literally nothing worth using, and back then you couldn't just check the Internet for that kind of stuff so you wasted a lot of your money before you realized there was nothing worth buying from the expansion. While I don't need some kind of mudinflation going on, cards in Fallen Empire were usually just strictly inferior to common stuff in the Revised Edition. Homelands and Chronicles was pretty bad too.
While Yugioh is by no means a model of balance, I think they can take a page out of the manga where most sacrifice effect used a quarter or even half of your life points to use, so that it's supposed to be used only in case of emergency. The problem with MTG is that the pace is so fast that losing a bunch of life over painlands/shocklands/whatever doesn't really matter because once you assembled your combo the game is over so as long as you still have 1 life left it's perfectly fine to burn through it for speed.
While Yugioh is by no means a model of balance, I think they can take a page out of the manga where most sacrifice effect used a quarter or even half of your life points to use, so that it's supposed to be used only in case of emergency. The problem with MTG is that the pace is so fast that losing a bunch of life over painlands/shocklands/whatever doesn't really matter because once you assembled your combo the game is over so as long as you still have 1 life left it's perfectly fine to burn through it for speed.
I've been pondering this over, and I was probably too hasty to compare Origins to Fallen Empires...there's fun to be had with it.
It's no Eldrazi or New Phyrexia though.
It'll be a set to draft for practice, to collect for art and fun...less so for Modern playability, that's my prediction.
And yes, I've heard Yugioh is much better at making sure all the expansions are balanced and worth buying.
It's no Eldrazi or New Phyrexia though.
It'll be a set to draft for practice, to collect for art and fun...less so for Modern playability, that's my prediction.
And yes, I've heard Yugioh is much better at making sure all the expansions are balanced and worth buying.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick DouglassI don't think Yugioh is remotely balanced. I think statistics show the guy who goes first wins 80% of the time on the first turn at the tournament level, but I think whenever they put a new expansion it's a new format and everything before it is simply rotated out because it's not the same format so it's always worth buying if you're into that kind of stuff. I'm just saying thematically, having to sacrifice 1/4 or 1/2 of your life seems to be a more reasonable drawback for a speed advantage because the 1/2 life stuff just seems so irrelevent. For example there's a new card in Origins that's something like 3BB, gets you a 2/2 and a 5/5 token flyer, you lose 2 life per turn the 2/2 is alive. It's like seriously? Even if the 5/5 had a 2 life/turn upkeep that's not really that big of a deal and of course you'd normally just attack the 2/2 and get it killed (and if not they lose 2 life a turn too unless they've something that's like a 0 or 1/3+ that can block is without killing it or dying. The way MTG balances these drawbacks reminds me of the scene from Fate Stay Night where Sakura sold her soul to the dark tentacle gods for the power of darkness, so Rin had to use the Sword of Kaledioscope, and the conversation went something like:
Rin: "My Sword of the Kaledioscope gives me literally infinite power!"
Sakura: "Sis, I know my manga! You can't keep using something that's infinitely powerful without a drawback so I just have to ride out this wave and then my tentacles will win!"
Rin: "Well, if I use this sword too much I get a nasty muscle cramp tomorrow when I wake up."
Sakura: "How is this fair???"
Rin: "Nobody said the drawbacks have to be fair!"
I mean I know if they make you lose too much life then burn dominates again but I think burn is supposed to be there to make sure you can't just keep on lose your life for speed without worrying about it.
Rin: "My Sword of the Kaledioscope gives me literally infinite power!"
Sakura: "Sis, I know my manga! You can't keep using something that's infinitely powerful without a drawback so I just have to ride out this wave and then my tentacles will win!"
Rin: "Well, if I use this sword too much I get a nasty muscle cramp tomorrow when I wake up."
Sakura: "How is this fair???"
Rin: "Nobody said the drawbacks have to be fair!"
I mean I know if they make you lose too much life then burn dominates again but I think burn is supposed to be there to make sure you can't just keep on lose your life for speed without worrying about it.
Magic is popular in some sense precisely because it has always been a broken game. Imagine it without the Power Nine.
I just wish they'd break it more often, instead of having years where no one who buys can put a foot wrong, and then other years where you can't get playable cards even if you drop hundreds of dollars on the expansions.
I just wish they'd break it more often, instead of having years where no one who buys can put a foot wrong, and then other years where you can't get playable cards even if you drop hundreds of dollars on the expansions.
“I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." --Frederick Douglass