The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Hey Seeker, how is the Gamecube doing?  Is it holding up?  Think it'll last?

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.

 #29057  by SineSwiper
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:14 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Don is just on a higher level than everybody else. He's snoring and waiting for you to reach the top but it's more of a turtoise and a hare story.</div>

 #29058  by SineSwiper
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:15 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Yeah, as well as the rest of the companies. PSX has a CD-ROM, and N64 didn't. They have been living with that mistake for the past 10 years.</div>

 #29059  by SineSwiper
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:18 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>The Dreamcast is selling more than the XBox. That defeats all arguments :)</div>

 #29061  by Kupek
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:57 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Seeing as how I liked Super Mario 64 and Zelda for the N64 - despite not owning them - I'm going to disagree with you there.</div>

 #29062  by G-man Joe
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:06 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Five people, eh? Ever thought of using a cart or even a red wagon? =8^D</div>
 #29063  by Don
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:25 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I mean yeah you're going to have some people who buy the game for Zelda or Metroid, but they're still fairly similar game. Well, I'm not sure where to place Metroid since it's been forever since a new one came out (there wasn't one for N64, I think)But I'd guess it'd look like a generic 3D Platformer in the same category as Mario/Zelda.</div>
 #29064  by Don
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:42 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The only Square game I'm looking forward to is Kingdom Hearts at the moment. In general I have been disappointed with most RPG recently.

When you've Nintendo people make press statements like, "We think online games suck, just look at FF11", that's not a good way to try to get people friendly to you. Yes I don't know what the heck really happened between Nintendo and Square, but I don't see Square making statements like, "We think making a console would suck, just look at NGC". Square's been trying to get back into making games for the GBA because that's an easy market to get, and Nintendo somehow isn't capitalizing on this opportunity. Square probably has no intention of developing for NGC but they will have to if they want to develop for GBA, and it's a mystery to me why Nintendo hasn't try to manuever this to its advantage. GBA doesn't need any help at all since it's the only system on the handheld market. FF12 can be a GBA exclusive and it's not going to help the GC any.

Haven't heard of any big Enix titles for Nintendo unless you want to count Dragon Quest Monsters for GBA. The biggest one I've heard recently is Star Ocean 3: Until The End of Time for PS2. Enix's influence isn't that big anymore anyway after people got burned on DQ7 (like the game or not, it took way too long).

Tales series is made by Namco. It's a respectable series in terms of sales though that's about all I can say about it. It'll help, but probably not enough. You always need quantity above quality in the console system. So what if FFwhatever sells for 3 million? Even if all 3 million games are bought by someone who went out a system for it, you're still only looking at 3 million systems which still won't bridge the gap between PS2 and GC installed base, and you certainly don't get very many of such games, if any.

You're right RPG isn't a huge force and especially not here, but diversification is not a strength of Nintendo from what I can observe and it's always been the key to winning the console wars. Nintendo is basically all 3D platformer and they really need any kind of 3rd party support on the areas they're not good at but I don't see them working hard to get it.</div>
 #29065  by Don
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:48 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>If you're saying no to Soul Caliber you're basically saying no to 3D fighting games. But just because they were doing things totally wrong in the past doesn't mean doing things the way it ought to be will suddenly help them win.</div>
 #29066  by Don
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:50 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The closest thing I can get to sales number is the usual "We shipped a bizillion copy of whatevers" press release but then everyone says that.

I'm basing trends I see from the N64 era, and yes GC isn't N64 but if I don't have sales numbers it's doesn't make sense to assume anything else anyway.</div>
 #29067  by Don
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:09 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Nintendo regularly slams Square, the most recent one over how FF11 sucked and that's why they don't go into online gaming even though everyone knows that's going to be future once the necessary infrastructure have been built. Losing Square hurts because it's like losing the whole RPG market. It's not so much as Square = RPG market but FF7 really raised the bar for RPG and other developers can't work with cartridge and still match the standard for 3D RPG set by Square. So they all moved to Sony (since Saturn was never going anywhere).</div>

 #29068  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:21 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Are you being sarcastic? Zelda Ocarina of Time and Mario 64 are considered two of the best games ever made.</div>

 #29072  by Zeus
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 11:02 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Um, no. Metroid is one of THE most demanded games from the 18+ demographic. It's an action game, pure. Zelda is wanted, but that's action RPG. Mario really isn't wanted, and is more of a kids game</div>

 #29073  by Zeus
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 11:04 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>They flat-out admitted they were wrong, which is why it was fixed for this generation. The point is, the gamer wins. More choice on the system, period</div>

 #29074  by Andrew, Killer Bee
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 11:12 pm
<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>Statement... boggling... mind... there's insane, then there's criminally insane, and then there's you, Sine :).</div>
 #29075  by Zeus
 Wed Jul 24, 2002 11:21 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Can't believe I thought Tales was Enix....man.....

Nintendo has worked their ASS off getting third parties for the GC, whereas they were snooty during the N64 days. That's the major difference, which is why they've got much better third party support already for the GC than the had in the first 2 years on the N64. Look at their big titles, most are third party. Everyone is surprised how strong their third-party support has been and you're disappointed? They've re-opened the door with Square, they've got Enix back on the GBA, which might open the door for them a bit on the GC (remember, they've gotta recover from the N64 days...), and they've got Namco big-time (Tales - exclusive, Soul Calibur 2, Dead to Rights), and remember, Namco was a HUGE reason for the success of the PS2. That's big...and the system hasn't even been out for a year. They've got a lot to recover from, from the old bridges they burned, and they're doing a helluva job so far. Now it's a matter of whether they can keep the games coming from both third and first party for the next couple of years.

Also, Square already announced a GC game that will link to the GBA. They were ALWAYS more interested in the GBA so they can REALLY make money off their remakes. They might sell 250,000 on the WonderSwan, but with the GBA userbase, they'll shatter that, all for the same development costs. Square is going multi 'cause of finanacial reasons, and they've said all along they'd be intersted in the 'Cube. And like I said, any relationship between the two companies is good now, the way they were taking during the N64-PS2 days.

DQ7 sold 4+million in Japan. Whether you liked it or not, that's HUGE and they still have immense influence with that game. If DQ8 is announced for the 'Cube, that's a MAJOR coup, probably the biggest catch Nintendo could have third-party wise.

And they're working on the quantity, that was my original point. In the N64 days, it was Nintendo's games and you got lucky to get anything from the third parties that wasn't shit. Now, you've not only got tons of third party, you've got lots of pretty decent ones, and a lot of them. Just look at the popular games, vast majority is third party. They've got quantity and quality there, comparable to the 'Box, and Microshaft doesn't really have anything first party other than Halo. They might not have the PS2-level of quantity, but they're not exactly back where they were in the N64 days. They might not have the RPGs, but they've got a healthy amount of everything else.

Also, Nintendo will NOT win this war, no chance. But, if they can capture 30-35% of the market, that's huge. And for the coin they're spending, that's much more than enough for them to remain as the most profitable developer and hardware manufacturer, and that's their focus. Their business plan is not to win, just to do well. They're letting Microshaft and Sony decide who actually wins</div>

 #29076  by G-man Joe
 Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:42 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Sine's head was punched by David Tua.</div>

 #29077  by Julius Seeker
 Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:44 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>According to PGC's Polls over 50% of the readers were between 18 and 24 and 25% more 25 and older, Metroid was fourth place on the most wanted list with Zelda, Mario, and Resident Evil 0 ahead and Starfox Adventure practically tied with it.</div>

 #29078  by Julius Seeker
 Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:47 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Oh yeah, and Gamefaqs also had Zelda as the most wanted game with Mario in second, but I don't know what age groups read that site.,</div>
 #29083  by Don
 Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:08 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>And even if all 3 million of those crazy Japanese bought a PSX because of DQ7, take that away and you've 97 million PSX shipped in the world instead of 100. Okay, maybe some got the PSX originally for DQ7 but didn't buy it, but if that's so I doubt DQ8 will be motivation for them to get the next system.

You can't account for 100 million+ user base like GB or PSX with one game... or even all the million sellers put together, really. They're of course significant, but they're just one part of the puzzle.

I'm pretty sure Enix always developed for GB. They pumped out a lot of Dragon Quest Monster series for the GB even back in the PSX days. With the way Enix is going I'd say Star Ocean 3 is going to have a lot more effect than Dragon Quest 8 if it ever finishes. I can guaranteed you the awesome looking Star Ocean 3 will have a lot more effect on the NA market than DQ8 if it's going to look comparable to DQ7 level technology (relative to the system's power).

Nintendo may be learning from their mistake, but this time they're also in a much less favorable position than the PSX era so just learning from the mistakes might not be enough. 30-35% is not a win? Then what is? Everyone knows GC wasn't going to dethrone the PS2. With the way PS2 is dominating the market, I think they'd be lucky if they can get 20% of the market in the long run. I don't know how profitable Nintendo is, but I suspect Miyamoto probably gets paid a lot and million game sellers typically have comparable development & advertising costs. In the N64 era Nintendo sold millions on many titles and we know they weren't exactly making a lot of money (profit from GB were used to cover for N64, if I recall). Nintendo seems to do a lot of stuff in-house so far as game-developing is concerned and that doesn't help keeping cost down either.</div>

 #29086  by Zeus
 Thu Jul 25, 2002 11:14 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Check MagicBox. DQ7 cracked 4 mil in Japan alone. As for 30-35%, that's a major increase in share, which would make it a win, particularly using their business model (not going after 1st, remaining profitable in everything).</div>

 #29090  by SineSwiper
 Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:02 am
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Nevermind how much Nintendo fucked Square over FF2's censoring, and fighting to get the right amount of ROM to put Chrono Trigger on there. Not to mention Nintendo still charges $60-70 for their damn games.</div>
 #29092  by Don
 Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:59 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>DQ7 came at a very late point of the PSX era, even if all 4 million people who got it originally got it for DQ7, it's still not big of a deal, and that's probably not the case. I'd bet that DQ7 sales suck anywhere outside of Japan too and probably less than any of the FFs worldwide since FFs can usually manage at least a million outside Japan no problem.

As for Nintendo's strategy, it's about the most realistic one they can have at this moment, but even getting 30-35% would be very hard for them consider they have a lot less than that at the moment and competition isn't going to get easier.</div>

 #29095  by Zeus
 Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:22 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>For sure it's realistic, they're just flat-out not as big with as much marketing muscle as the others. It's the one that makes most sense. 30-35% is a possibility at the end of the life-cycle. Even at 25%, that's still damned good (not including GBA, of course)</div>

 #29096  by Zeus
 Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:26 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Right now, the game prices and royalties charged by each hardware manufacturer is about equal; basically negligible for deciding which system.</div>