The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • Kali, you'd better hope Microsoft is willing to stick it out. From what I know, what this guy is saying is true

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #31416  by Zeus
 Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:13 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://red-mercury.com/mmceo/mmceo_curr ... l">Here</a>

Kali, you'd better hope Microsoft is willing to stick it out. From what I know, what this guy is saying is true</div>

 #31418  by Tortolia
 Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:27 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Interesting read, and it does make sense...</div>

 #31419  by SineSwiper
 Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:05 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>$389?! Microsoft is fucking stupid!</div>
 #31422  by Julius Seeker
 Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:09 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Also, just look at sales, the Gamecube has surpassed the N64 by quite a bit in the sales department, the Gamecube after one year is now where the N64 was after more than two years on the market. Nintendo is still making Billions, and they're increasing their marketing expenses at the same time. If you really look at it, perhaps the future will be getting out the most high quality games on the cheapest possible hardware, it makes sense from a consumers POV.

It doesn't make sense, especially when for just a few hundred dollars more you can pick up a PC which has all the features you could ever want, and they're very customizable. Plus there are already plenty of game companies working on PC titles, they're just not as successful, there's room for only 3 or 4 big name PC game publishers that can sell Million+ titles (Electronic Arts, Activision, Blizzard), but on console there's room for about 50-60 (Nintendo, Sega, Capcom, Acclaim, Rare, Midway, Ubi-soft, Konami, 989, Square, EA, Activision, Rockstar/DMA, Namco, the list goes on...). The Console gaming market is growing rapidly, while the PC market hasn't seamed to have grown much at all, it's still the same companies over and over again, and there are very few million sellers.

So far the best argument I've seen is "Industry experts say so" from an anonymous source.</div>
 #31423  by kali o.
 Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:27 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I'll give you some qoutes...

- "In reality, Microsoft is the only one that has bought in to this "lose money on the hardware" idea."

This deserves a reference; anything. As far as I've ever heard, ALL 3 consoles were sold at a loss. Though I do believe Xbox is taking the biggest hit.

- "On Day 1, they sell the XBox for $389 or so to those one million "early adopters" that would frankly pay anything to get their hands on a new game console."

That $389 price is either the Australian/European initial price, or based on the minimum priced "bundle". Or it's completely fictional. Again, references are good things. Microsoft made a commitment almost a year before launch to "be extremely competative with current consoles" (ie; PS2).

- "Now, they are being forced to match the Playstation 2 and Gamecube..."

BS, and one only has to look at the European market to see that. Xbox has undercut the PS2...catch up isn't the name of the game. Microsoft is willing to lose money to gain market share and they've proven this repeatedly.

- "But what would happen if one of their competitors suddenly combined two of its major computer chips in to one chip, tripling the output of their manufacturing plant?"

What the fuck is this guy talking about?

- "Sony invested $1 billion in their own chip fabrication facility."

Well gee, that kinda takes some of the bite out of Microsoft's supposed loss now doesn't it? Do the math...

- "Microsoft, on the other hand, grabbed a bunch of off-the-shelf chips from a variety of vendors and shoved them together in an absolutely huge, expensive, heavy box that looks a lot like a PC and would probably maim a small child if it fell off the top of a TV."

Not only does this stupid comment show his bias, it is also inaccurate. The chips in the Xbox are specially made AND Microsoft stayed close the PC arcitechture for developer ease of use and simple porting of their key 1st and 2nd party games. He's a shithead and it shows.

- "Even if Microsoft could combine the nVidia graphics chip with the Intel CPU, do you think nVidia and Intel would go for this?"

Again, what the fuck is this idiot taking about? IBM and ATI should combine? Sony? To make some sort of uber-chip? Oh, the emotion chip was so well recieved by everyone...yes, let's follow suit? Pft. And why isn't Nintendo subject to the same critism? Because they shouldn't be and this guy is dumb. Further, is Sony's chip even a combination of CPU and Graphics? I didn't think so but I could be wrong. But I fail to see how this would be in any way faster or better. Cost-effective? MAYBE. But you also frustrate your developers and pave the way for lackluster games. Good idea, swift.


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This article was unintelligent, non-referenced drivel that has been spouted by countless fanboy's for the last year. Thanks.

Xbox and Gamecube are still neck and neck. And the PS2 is still far and away the leader...

With XboxLive facing off against Metroid, this should be an interesting holiday season.

And finally, I think --- if anything --- Microsoft's price cuts, heavily funded narketing campaigns, set up dedicated online server network, exclusives (bioware, etc), 3rd party aquisitions (Rare, etc.), etc. have (or at least, SHOULD HAVE) proven to everybody that they are in this for the long haul.

But what the fuck do I care what anyone else thinks? I don't...I just refuse to play any more stupid jap games except for the occasional good RPG. Put those North American/European games on Gamecube...PS2...a new breed of Atari...I don't fucking care. I go where those games go....period.

KO-</div>
 #31424  by kali o.
 Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:30 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I'll give you some qoutes...

- <b>"In reality, Microsoft is the only one that has bought in to this "lose money on the hardware" idea."</b>

This deserves a reference; anything. As far as I've ever heard, ALL 3 consoles were sold at a loss. Though I do believe Xbox is taking the biggest hit.

- <b>"On Day 1, they sell the XBox for $389 or so to those one million "early adopters" that would frankly pay anything to get their hands on a new game console."</b>

That $389 price is either the Australian/European initial price, or based on the minimum priced "bundle". Or it's completely fictional. Again, references are good things. Microsoft made a commitment almost a year before launch to "be extremely competative with current consoles" (ie; PS2).

- <b>"Now, they are being forced to match the Playstation 2 and Gamecube..."</b>

BS, and one only has to look at the European market to see that. Xbox has undercut the PS2...catch up isn't the name of the game. Microsoft is willing to lose money to gain market share and they've proven this repeatedly.

- <b>"But what would happen if one of their competitors suddenly combined two of its major computer chips in to one chip, tripling the output of their manufacturing plant?"</b>

What the fuck is this guy talking about?

- <b>"Sony invested $1 billion in their own chip fabrication facility."</b>

Well gee, that kinda takes some of the bite out of Microsoft's supposed loss now doesn't it? Do the math...

- <b>"Microsoft, on the other hand, grabbed a bunch of off-the-shelf chips from a variety of vendors and shoved them together in an absolutely huge, expensive, heavy box that looks a lot like a PC and would probably maim a small child if it fell off the top of a TV."</b>

Not only does this stupid comment show his bias, it is also inaccurate. The chips in the Xbox are specially made AND Microsoft stayed close the PC arcitechture for developer ease of use and simple porting of their key 1st and 2nd party games. He's a shithead and it shows.

- <b>"Even if Microsoft could combine the nVidia graphics chip with the Intel CPU, do you think nVidia and Intel would go for this?"</b>

Again, what the fuck is this idiot taking about? IBM and ATI should combine? Sony? To make some sort of uber-chip? Oh, the emotion chip was so well recieved by everyone...yes, let's follow suit? Pft. And why isn't Nintendo subject to the same critism? Because they shouldn't be and this guy is dumb. Further, is Sony's chip even a combination of CPU and Graphics? I didn't think so but I could be wrong. But I fail to see how this would be in any way faster or better. Cost-effective? MAYBE. But you also frustrate your developers and pave the way for lackluster games. Good idea, swift.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

This article was unintelligent, non-referenced drivel that has been spouted by countless fanboy's for the last year. Thanks.

Xbox and Gamecube are still neck and neck. And the PS2 is still far and away the leader...

With XboxLive facing off against Metroid, this should be an interesting holiday season.

And finally, I think --- if anything --- Microsoft's price cuts, heavily funded narketing campaigns, set up dedicated online server network, exclusives (bioware, etc), 3rd party aquisitions (Rare, etc.), etc. have (or at least, SHOULD HAVE) proven to everybody that they are in this for the long haul.

But what the fuck do I care what anyone else thinks? I don't...I just refuse to play any more stupid jap games except for the occasional good RPG. Put those North American/European games on Gamecube...PS2...a new breed of Atari...I don't fucking care. I go where those games go....period.

KO-</div>

 #31432  by Zeus
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:45 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>No, it just mentions the difference between traditional console economics (that Microshaft is employing) and current console economics, that Sony and Nintendo employ. Microshaft will learn by next round, I think. No mention of set-top boxes at all</div>
 #31433  by Zeus
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:56 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>1) All three consoles were sold at a loss, but Nintendo was for a VERY short period and SOny had the head start. The point is the difference between traditional and current console economics, which he makes a pretty good point

2) The $389 price point was the IDEAL point. As he mentioned, they were forced to change, which ruined their economic model

3) Europe price cutting was after the fact. They were willing to take a hit to break into that market 'cause they know it's basically Sony only over there. Even Nintendo is having a hard time cracking the market there. It's Sony only in Europe, has been for a long time

4) He's talking about Sony's planned merging of their PS2 chips into one chip, to cut mfg costs in order to engage in a price war. Nintendo is prepared for it, but Microshaft has to eat the loss

5) Sony invested the money in order to prepare itself for the long haul price war. They won't see the real benefit until near the end of the PS2's life, after they've paid off the cash outlay, which is where they can make killer coin

6) While I mostly agree with your comment on this one, the parts are basically off-the-shelf parts with some modifications.

7) see #4. It's an important part of cost cutting in a console

The guy makes very good points, something Microshaft will incorporate into the Xbox 2. They're gonna lost a lot of money , they knew that. This round is for them to learn and get a foothold, and they're doing that.</div>
 #31435  by kali o.
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:43 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>1) All three consoles were sold at a loss, but Nintendo was for a VERY short period and SOny had the head start. The point is the difference between traditional and current console economics, which he makes a pretty good point
--------------------------------------

Huh? Come again? If that's what you think console economics is, I question your schooling. Current economics (almost in every market) is dominate-and-drive-your-competition-out-of-the-market-and-control-the-price/cost-level. It's the ONLY way to survive. That takes money...and it's a strategy that does indeed span generations. And I'm not being pessimistic...When you think of the best TV and all around electronic maker, who do you think of? Sony. How about the portable game market? Gameboy...but cell phone are making scary inroads lately.
If you look at Microsoft's business model, they are going after all technology products that are based primarily on "intellectual property"...and reduced overhead is always a good plan. All indications are that Microsoft REALLY wants the console entertainment market....and it's not that they are following some old make-money-off-the-razors plan...it just that the are willing to take a loss to wedge their way into the fray.

If he made a good point, it's sure as hell lost on me.
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2) The $389 price point was the IDEAL point. As he mentioned, they were forced to change, which ruined their economic model

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BS. IDEAL says who? Him? All cost of Microsoft's hardware is pure speculation. And they changed nothing...they said they would launch at a competative price with current consoles *wink*, *wink*, *nudge*, *nudge*

If you have any CREDIBLE information otherwise, link it.
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3) Europe price cutting was after the fact. They were willing to take a hit to break into that market 'cause they know it's basically Sony only over there. Even Nintendo is having a hard time cracking the market there. It's Sony only in Europe, has been for a long time

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Maybe you are wording it wrong...You do realize that Microsoft initiated the last price cut under the PS2 price point...in fact, last I heard, Sony wasn't willing to match the move (that was a little while ago though)...

If your point was to say "They cut their price to break into the market"... then...uhhh...yes...that IS what I said....

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4) He's talking about Sony's planned merging of their PS2 chips into one chip, to cut mfg costs in order to engage in a price war. Nintendo is prepared for it, but Microshaft has to eat the loss

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First, I hadn't heard about a new plan to merge chips. And engage in a price war? They are already at $199, how much lower can they go this early? And how is "Nintendo prepared for it"? Big statement, back it up with something.

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5) Sony invested the money in order to prepare itself for the long haul price war. They won't see the real benefit until near the end of the PS2's life, after they've paid off the cash outlay, which is where they can make killer coin

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Err...ok. Meanwhile, MS doesn't need much of an R&D budget, outsources it mfg needs and pits suppliers into competative pricing. Two totally different business models. You speculate the success of one, I'll look at the general financial well-being of other past hardware-involved companies... *cough* In case you missed that, I think MS has the right idea.

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6) While I mostly agree with your comment on this one, the parts are basically off-the-shelf parts with some modifications.

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Err...substantiate this. And differentiate Xbox parts from GC and PS2. Do you have the technical know-how? I doubt it. Do you have sources? I doubt it. In which case, you are spouting drivel and you should stop.

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7) see #4. It's an important part of cost cutting in a console

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See my response to #4. And further, is there a historical context that makes this a "proven method" of cost cutting? Not in my memory...but maybe. If so, enlighten me. Frankly, it doesn't sound right. What chips are being combined? And how is it cost effective? And once again, how is Nintendo "prepared"? The only savings that usually accompany streamlined chip production is saved time...

_________________________________________________________

The guy makes very good points, something Microshaft will incorporate into the Xbox 2. They're gonna lost a lot of money , they knew that. This round is for them to learn and get a foothold, and they're doing that.

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I stand by the fact that this guy makes ZERO good points and is only spouting the same fanboy drivel I've heard for the last year.

This guy is the idiot owner of a failing small palm-pilot software house....his opinions are fantastic and, gee, I hope Microsoft is listening to the incredible economic and console opinions this industry giant is spewing....

In the unlikely event you missed the seething sarcasm, I couldn't disagree with you on EVERY point any more.

KO-
"If any of that sounded rude, it wasn't intended...except towards the retarded author"</div>

 #31436  by ak404
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 5:11 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Comic Sans MS"; text-align: left; '>Heh. Except they never released it $389, remember? It started at $299, the same price as a PS2 at the time.</div>

 #31442  by the Gray
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:54 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I stopped reading about the economics after he said "absolutely huge, expensive, heavy box that looks a lot like a PC and would probably maim a small child if it fell off the top of a TV" Damn that's funny</div>

 #31444  by Julius Seeker
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:37 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Well, it's kind of hard to take an article seriously after reading a statement like that =P</div>

 #31445  by G-man Joe
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:45 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>"ZERO MILLION PEOPLE!" hehehehe! That's funny! May Xbox die and Kali O send me nude pics of his girlfriend and "above 16 year old" sister (and possibly his M, who ILF). =8^P</div>

 #31448  by Julius Seeker
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:35 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Has there been any indication that the best business strategy in the forseeable future will be anything other than getting the best games out on the cheapest possible medium and platform?</div>

 #31451  by SineSwiper
 Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:16 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>yeah, but the fact that they even considered $389 is funny. After all, $300 was already too much.</div>

 #31465  by Zeus
 Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:22 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>No, that's always the main thing, which has been Nintendo's modo for the last bit. But the traditional lose-money-on-hardware-and-make-it-back-in-software idea is dead in the increasingly competitive industry</div>

 #31478  by Julius Seeker
 Sat Nov 16, 2002 2:49 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Why do you say that? There is absolutely no indication that suggests the Industry will not continue in its current direction, both Microsoft and Sony are lowering prices.</div>

 #31488  by Zeus
 Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:16 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>That's called supply and demand. What I was referring to was the business economic model, which is what's developed BEFORE you ever sell the product, during the design stages</div>