The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Is it just nostaglia or are RPGs used to be better?

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #32135  by Don
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:00 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>A lot of people talk about the good old days when FF6 was the pinnacle of RPG or something. For a long time I dismissed such talks as just mere nostaglia (and BTW, FF6 really isn't that good anyway), but recently I've noticed I've quite a pile of RPG gathering dust that I never finished. Okay, maybe I don't play games as much as I used to, so I went back and played Grandia 2 again and found myself playing through the stupidly long ending sequence starting with Valmar Core all the way to the stupidly long ending dialogue. So no, I'm not as jaded with RPG as I thought I am, so why is there so many new RPG I'm not playing?

I think the first problem is that a lot of RPG nowadays are 1-shot RPGs, like Xenogears or Skies of Arcadia. As much as I love these games, I really can't myself playing them again due to Xenogears's insanely long dialogue sequences and Skies of Arcadia's insanely long battle sequences (Xelos takes around 30 minutes to kill in airship form if you didn't have your energy charged on the round he's vulnerable to all attacks). It makes a great game something you don't want to play again and it makes a medicore game something you never finish. The biggest problem I've with recently RPG is that they're too long, and not necessarily in an absolute sense (though I think any RPG over 30 hours is too long, or it better be a VERY good one). There's just too much uninteresting stuff going on before something of interest happens. Take Grandia Xtreme I just brought (a big mistake!), after 2 of the ruins I'm not still even sure what the game is supposed to be about.

Directly related to the length of RPG is the length of battles. Battles in RPG are getting too long. Not only does loading times seem to simply increase, battles themselves tend to get longer due to animation time and whatnot. Back when games are simple, battles simply didn't last that long because there was no 30 second super attacks. I think we've come to realize that RPG battle system isn't going to be evolve beyond the old attack & heal-when-low tactics and yet

Music quality has also declined in RPG, because of the 'bigger is better' tendency, but more music isn't better music. In fact it's usually the opposite. Music provides a huge part in characterization and storytelling of RPGs. Take Schala of Chrono Trigger, who is the living example that music is greater than good characterization. At her core, Schala is a boring mysterious-damsel-in-distress-with-super-powers that almost RPG has. She doesn't even say very much. If she wasn't always associated with Schala's Theme and Chrono Corrodir (the theme of the floating world of Zeal), she would be, well, like the boring Schala of Chrono Cross that no one cares about. I've been looking at some Japanese polls and Chrono Corridor and Schala's theme are #2 and #8 on the fan list. Coincidence? Hardly. I was reading the fanfiction under the "Kid Stab Me!" club and even though I can't understand most of it, even looking at the adjectives used tells me that what they're writing about isn't the girl in the game. It's the girl in the song. Heck, I'm one of them too. In fact, Mistuda's liner on The Girl Who Stole a Star (Kid's theme) says that Kid is his favorite character and her theme is made that way to capture what the game did not. Bad music leads to bad character development. Back in the old days, musicians didn't have to crank out 100 tracks per game so the quality remained high.

Then there is also storytelling. RPG makers don't seem to grasp the idea that they're not good storytellers to begin with, and trans-temporal parallel dimensionism are better explained in a book than in a RPG. I don't expect every RPG to have unique, likeable characters, like Wakka. I don't even expect them to do the generic boring types really well, like anyone in Skies of Arcadia, or Auron of FFX, or Rikku of Kingdom Hearts. But a lot of the time they're giving me characters I don't even care about. I can at least know why I hate Ryudo, Elena, Millenia, Tio, and Roan in Grandia 2. In Grandia Xtreme I honestly don't even care about the cast. RPG character seem to be increasing bland. Not only aren't they making any efforts to make them good, there isn't even any effort to make them interesting, likeable, or even hateable.

Maybe the future of RPG isn't all just doom and gloom. FFX and Kingdom Hearts are certainly worthy to be compared to, if not better than any of the old nostalgia big names (Trigger, FF7, FF6, whatever). But right now I sure don't feel very excited to the new games coming out.</div>

 #32136  by the Gray
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:30 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I can't believe you'd put FFX over FFVI......</div>
 #32137  by Don
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:06 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Same problem as most of the later Square RPG that people said wasn't good as the good old days. Most notable too many characters that you could care less about.</div>

 #32139  by Eric
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:11 am
<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>Dragon Warrior 7 was overated to the 100th power.</div>

 #32140  by Eric
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:12 am
<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>That game is overrated, yet any minute I expect to see Seeker praising it......bah.</div>

 #32141  by the Gray
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:50 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>for me it was the nostalgia. DW3 is one of my all time fav's</div>

 #32142  by SineSwiper
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:00 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>You can't be comparing Grandia 2 to anything else. G2 is a very mediocre RPG. FFX, Chrono Cross, and (currently) Suikoden 2 have been very enjoyable RPGs so far. It's not about nostaglia, but about how much time and money you have now. (Not enough time to play games, too much money to buy games)</div>
 #32143  by SineSwiper
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:07 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>FFX, Chrono Cross, and (currently) Suikoden 2 have been very enjoyable RPGs so far. It's not about nostalgia, but about how much time and money you have now. (Not enough time to play games, too much money to buy games.)

On that note with music improving the game, yes, definitely. Suikoden 2 has some awesome music, and a decent storyline, but the music seems to actually improve the story to some degree.</div>

 #32144  by SineSwiper
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:09 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Deep down, when you think about it, the DW series was total crap in terms of story, music, and graphics. The only thing it had was good gameplay.</div>

 #32145  by Kupek
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:55 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>What RPGs are even coming out? I certainly don't know. I'm more interested in other types of games at the moment (Metroid, and if you'd call the next Zelda and RPG, but I don't think that's the type of game you're getting at).</div>
 #32146  by Stephen
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:05 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>It's been my point of view for some time now that the best RPGs have always emphasized playability over watchability. The crux of the matter, to me, is a question of freedom: freedom of gameplay, freedom of exploration, freedom to skip 11-minute FMV cutscenes, and so forth. I obviously prefer the open-ended and customizable role-playing experience to the ultra-linear and stifling affairs that constitute 90% or so of RPG titles. Given the choice between taking Diablo II or any of the Final Fantasy games to a desert island, I'd pick Diablo II over any one, or even all of them.

Console RPGs will remain creatively stagnant until one of two things happen. Either RPG developers stop focusing on story and dialogue over gameplay and fun, or the whole industry gets a mass infusion of writing talent. Since I don't foresee any of the likes of William Goldman or Stephen King writing RPG scripts in the near future, it will probably have to be the first.</div>

 #32147  by kent
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:16 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>only things that i have interest in are "Xenosaga, Star Ocean 3 and FFX-2"</div>

 #32148  by Kupek
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:25 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>See, I like lots of story. Would it be naive to wish that they lots of story with improved gameplay?</div>

 #32151  by Don
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:04 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Xenosaga isn't coming out here, at least I haven't heard any plans announced.</div>
 #32152  by Don
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:14 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Which is better than about 50% of the RPG I've played recently where I can't even remember anything worth liking/hating about the main characters.

Suikoden 2 would've been okay if it didn't use the recycled 'important character dies and needs 108 stars for true ending' script. Character development is pathetic due to huge number of characters present. The villian side is pretty much undeveloped due to the plot twist with Luca Blight about halfway through the game. None of the good guys have any personality worth mentioning because the game never forces you use 95% of them and the other 5% you can just rotate around, except Nanami.</div>

 #32153  by Flip
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:46 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>I also like story over anything. I would vote for quicker battles (less hp, higher damage, fast action) and more story.</div>

 #32154  by Flip
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:52 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>I thoght they did an amzing job deveoping every character, which is rough to do with so many. You know you a game is good when you spend hours doing nothing but sleeping at an inn hoping to get another Shadow dream sequence.</div>
 #32155  by Stephen
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:06 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>The life of a RPG script writer is not exactly an acclaimed one. Those who are talented enough to write novels or screenplays generally write novels and screenplays, not RPG scripts. Imagine John Boorman taking time off from making films to make a videogame. It would be fucking awesome if he did, don't doubt that. But it would be extraordinarily unusual. There's more respect to be had in getting an Academy Award or even a Golden Globe than five smiley faces from Gamepro magazine.

Believe me, I wish that making games was as respected an art form as directing cinema or writing novels. If it were, we'd get more RPGs written by people with actual talent. Until that happens, we're stuck with what we have, which, sadly, ain't much.</div>

 #32156  by Stephen
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:45 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Every character, eh? Even Mog, Umaro, and Gogo?</div>

 #32157  by kent
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:24 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Gamefaqs has a date (3/6/2003).</div>

 #32158  by Flip
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:04 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>Well gee, lets pick the three that you dont get till the world of ruin. Fine i concede that those were not developed so great, but i still stand by that they were some of the best characters in any FF.</div>

 #32159  by SineSwiper
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:29 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Dammit, I haven't even been close to finishing the game...</div>
 #32160  by Don
 Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:33 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Relm is a theme song wonder. I don't think you even get to see the scene where she was wondering where her father (Shadow) left unless Shadow dies. Without that scene she doesn't even have a personality, just a cutesy girl that likes to draw. Her introduction (In her pictures she captures everything ... the very essence of life) and her theme song is responsible for whatever personality she actually had because the game sure do not provide very much of it.

Strago didn't have much development either.

Take out Setzer's part with Darryl or whatever her name was on the Falcon and you have an empty character too, and it's not like The Falcon is some amazing character development either.

Gau has a single character development scene in the whole game when he goes and see his father.

Edgar and Sabin may have character development but neither are complex characters. The Coin Song part is pretty good... but other than that they're kind of generic bland characters.

Celes would've been a good character IF they can really show you what being Magitek Knight of Doom does to your psyche but they do not. I remember her character intro was like "Battle hardened product of Magitek Knights, and with a heart as pure as the snow..." Too bad that doesn't mean anything. The game's recurring theme around Celes seems to be that no one trusts her even though she's really this angelic pure hearted maiden that just blows up entire towns for fun. Too bad you don't ever see the part where she actually destroyed Miranda, and you don't really see this pure-hearted stuff except the time she sacrificed herself in the Magitek laboratory so everyone can escape from Kefka. The Solitary Island scene with Cid could've been expanded better. It's supposed to show her kindness helping out Cid, instead I end up killing Cid more often than not because you get to see the cliff scene if Cid dies.

Terra was okay but she's pretty predictable. A girl trying to learn what love is, yadda yadda. Been there, done that. It's not bad, but nothing to write home about either.

I thought Locke's development was pretty good with the whole thing about Rachel and Celes sort of being a substitute to Rachel, but the fact that Locke leaves the party for basically the entire duration of World of Ruin doesn't reinforce that theme very well.

Cyan's development is okay... but I'd say he's still about half theme song wonder.

To quote Kefka, the cast of FF6 does sound like something from a self-help brochure, and that's not very good character development.</div>

 #32162  by Zeus
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:07 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Mog was the Square mascot for years, so don't dis him. And 2 characters out of what, 12?</div>

 #32166  by Eric
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:00 am
<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>I NEVER saw that last scene that revealed the whole Shadow & Relm relationship! Damn.</div>

 #32167  by Stephen
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:29 am
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Oh, I think I'm going to dis Mog, Zeus. You might want to stand back and cover your ears. I wouldn't want my magnificent dis of the little albino fag hurt your feelings.</div>

 #32168  by Stephen
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:40 am
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Oh, I think I'm going to dis Mog, Zeus. You might want to stand back and cover your ears. I wouldn't want my magnificent dis of the little albino fag to hurt your feelings.</div>

 #32173  by Ganath
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:39 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I think Flip's post should be revised to say "...amazing job developing every character (relative to the crap writing of your standard RPG drivel)..."</div>

 #32174  by Ganath
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Wow, I bet Zeus is crying a river now.</div>

 #32180  by Zeus
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:55 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Wait........there, I was able to hold back my extreme inner paid in less than 1/2 a second.....</div>

 #32182  by Flip
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:16 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>Well you said yourself you wanted shorter games... One scene is about all the chars get, yet i think those scenes, as well as their dialog, lets you see their diversity and even understand them very easily.</div>

 #32183  by Flip
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:18 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>How could you call that story crap writing? For its time the only comparisons we have are junk. God damn you guys guys, i'm writing a game review soon about how FF6 owns you in every category and why.</div>

 #32184  by Flip
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:20 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>I thought Kefka was a good boss, too. I like either the totaly insane (Kefka), or the extremely calm calcultaed (Sephiroth). The final battle with the echo effect and a full HP atma weapon attack still gives me chills.</div>

 #32185  by Flip
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:21 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>I thought Kefka was a good boss, too.  I like either the totaly insane (Kefka), or the extremely calm calcultaed (Sephiroth).  The final battle with the echo effect and a full HP atma weapon attack and the chorus blaring in the background still gives me chills.</div>

 #32186  by Stephen
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:11 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>You're right about one thing. The alternatives at the time did have junk writing. Compared to them, FF VI had a slightly higher quality of junk writing. But it was, and is, still junk.</div>

 #32187  by SineSwiper
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:23 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>And nevermind Kefka, the most one-dimension character I've seen in any RPG.</div>

 #32188  by SineSwiper
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:25 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Jesus...the characters wouldn't fucking DIE in FF2!</div>

 #32189  by Flip
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:51 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>Well atleast he was developed, a lot of games, even lately, tend to never build up their final bosses personality at all.</div>
 #32190  by Ganath
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:23 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Seriously, I'd like to see a Final Fantasy where the hero responds "Oh for god's sake! Not this bullshit again!"

Following up on that thought, a parody game of Final Fantasy would likely result in perhaps the best written RPG of all time.

The only RPG story I can think of that moves to the level of "decent" would be Xenogears. And even that one needs a little work here and there too. Goddamnit, why don't they do us a favor and just rip off a fucking Tolkien novel?</div>

 #32191  by Ganath
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:27 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Son-of-a-submariner! You're right! (disregard this post, I just wanted to say that classic line)</div>

 #32197  by SineSwiper
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:12 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>And this is why I quote FFX on that one.</div>

 #32198  by SineSwiper
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:17 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>How can you even take Kefka seriously as a "totally insane" villian, when he's fucking up all the time? Plus, it was a SNES game, so it's not they could have showed "insanity" on a truely dark level.</div>
 #32200  by Don
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:35 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The scenes themselves do not provide enough information to give the character any meaning. Most of the character development is actually established through the character theme, the character intro (which often says a lot more about the character than the game), and the player's own imagination. It's not hard to see what kind of roles Relm or Gau or many of the poorly developed characters have, but just because you can see them doesn't excuse the game for having next to no development.</div>

 #32203  by Flip
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:29 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>Isnt that where it counts? Isnt there something to be said if i think this way as well as millions of other who think FF6 was the best? I'll take that char development any day of the week when compared to any other FF.</div>

 #32204  by Flip
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:46 pm
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>Well you know the boss has to lvl up, too, and since hes stong in the begining godlike is the only other step. How else is he supposed to take on a bunch of insanely strong characters?</div>

 #32212  by Ganath
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:12 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>So what the hell does that make the main characters? The real God? :)</div>

 #32213  by Ganath
 Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:13 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Considering the rest of the FFs mostly had nothing but scrawny dick for char development, that doesn't say much. :)</div>

 #32232  by Flip
 Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:34 am
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>You guys are hard to please. Then atleast name me one RPG that you thought DID have good char development...</div>