The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Building a better strategy game engine

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #33240  by Don
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:45 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>If you've been paying attention to my general comment on strategy game you'll probably notice I think most of them are hopeless broken/suck/etc. I've been brainstorming some ideas and I'm interested what you guys think.

1. Strategy game should ever be technology based. Otherwise it's not a strategy game. It's a game of whoever researches the fastest. Strategy game should be fought between units of comparable parameters. Master of Orion is probably the classic example where a fleet of arbitrary size and less than say about 50% of the tech tree has no chance of even defeating Antaran Raiders just from inability to hit the Antaran's Interphased Drive-powered ships.

2. The combat model should be simple. Anything complicated just makes it less likely to be balanced.

3. Any kind of healing, whether you want to call it magic, repair, or whatever, is a very very very very bad idea, especially in any game where experience matters.

4. Focus fire on a grand scale battle should yield no appreciable advantage over random firing. If anything, it should yield less. Focus fire is the lifeblood of RTS game strategy and it's wrong. It makes absolutely no sense how your 8 marines can do telepathetically communicate and all hit the same target at the same time. Besides the communication issues, your units should be taking extra damage if all they're ever doing is focusing on just one unit. Too many games mistake something like say they have 15 and we have 15, but we cleverly manuever so 15 of our guys is attacking 5 of theirs to mean that the ability to select all your unit to attack the same unit is a valid form of strategy. The easiest way to solve this is to give all units unlimited retaliation attacks.

5. This goes with healing, but units with experience should not be able to recover to full strength. We're not dealing with cloning here. You start with say 10 rookie guys and through the battle 5 of them becomes veteran and fight better. That's fine. But what's not fine is that those 5 veterans gets repaired/healed/whatever and then becomes a full strength 10 unit again. When you have two of those super elite units the point is that even though you only have 2 of them, they can function as say 4 units, not so that you can heal this 2 strength super elite to a full strength 10 so it can instant kill any rookie units.

6. Battles needs to be *slow*. Also slow battles must not be effected by focus fire or any type of healing otherwise you end up with something like Warcraft 3 where a few number of big units can stay alive nearly forever. This is because if battles are too fast-paced, the first attacker has way too much damage. It's not uncommon to see a console SRPG game where you can destroy half of the enemy army on your first turn. Rock-paper-scissors need not to be the only way to go. A tank should not always stomp on poor infantries or resupply vehicles becuase you can have a 95% kill rate. Sometimes a tank ought to duke it out with enemy tanks so that their tanks can't attack your weak positions. Usually rock-paper-scissor wipeout is also due to lack of zones of control, allowing the player to attack almost any units at will.

I'll refer to one of my favorite strategy games, Super Daisenryaku on the Genesis. One of my favorite map is Battle of Five Lakes which is a map with 4 players connected by bridges. Each bridge position is typically fortified and the tanks invariably are in the front with support units (anti air, artillery, etc) in the back. You can either assault the tanks head on with your own tanks, or you can use Bombers/Heliocopters but because units do not do sufficient damage in that game, you will rarely be able to say just move all your Helicopters to attack their tanks in heavily fortified positions, and then move all your tanks to trample over the defense. The typical result is that they'd have a few badly injuried tanks left but the support will be relatively intact, and next turn your air force will be bombarded by enemy air force and anti air, and since your tanks are assaulting from a bridge, they will get completely annihilated by enemy Heliocopters. Although you can clearly model Super Daisenryaku as a rock-paper-scissors games, actual fights are rarely fought this way because it exposes your unit too much and is liable to a counterattack.

Okay, that's all I can think of right now... maybe I'll think of something later.</div>

 #33248  by SineSwiper
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:52 am
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>I had little problem with FFTs engine.</div>

 #33254  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:54 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Read, also, since you know a lot more on this game than I do, what is your opinion on Fire Emblem overall?</div>
 #33257  by Don
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:12 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The first mover gets a huge advantage due to lack of counterattack (unless you've Counter) plus lack of zones of control means enemies can snipe at your lower HP units at will. It's basically a glorified RPG combat system. Also stuff like Raise 2 just isn't remotely fair.</div>
 #33260  by Don
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:17 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Still a glorified RPG system. Due to irrecoverable deaths the game is designed so that you can beat the game without ever losing a unit. This just doesn't make a good strategy game engine where attrition is common. I think the combat resolution in Fire Emblem is superb though the paper/rock/scissor aspect dominates the magic fights. One of the best thing about Fire Emblem is unlimited retaliation as long as in weapon range. The attacker still has an advantage since you attack first and can potentially kill the enemy, but this makes trying to *focus fire* on a boss unit worthless because most of your units will take significant damage if not outright death (since bosses tend to have superior stats than most of your units).</div>

 #33267  by SineSwiper
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:23 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Raise 2 has a big chance of failure, you forgot. Calcs may take away from the game (especially auto-battled calcs; I'm writing a FAQ), but not Raise 2.</div>

 #33270  by SineSwiper
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:36 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>That's on the GBA, right?</div>

 #33272  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:19 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I think there's five games, some on NES and some on SNES, the latest chapter is coming to GBA, it's also the first one to be released in English.</div>

 #33276  by SineSwiper
 Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:10 am
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Revive requires a height of ZERO, which isn't always there. "Hey, Jimmy, if you die, be sure to die on flat land, okay?"</div>

 #33277  by Flip
 Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:59 am
<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>ever play Medieval: Total War? I popped in the demo the other day and it seems like fun, dont think i will buy it, but the free missions held my interest.</div>
 #33282  by SineSwiper
 Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:55 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>"Hey, Jimmy, if you die, be sure to die on flat land, okay?" Not to mention that it only revives to half life, and it only has a 50% or less chance of working. Whether you admit it or not, the life spells/abilities are perfectly balanced:

Phoenix Down - instant item with 100% chance, but only 3-5% HP.
Revive - instant ability with no MP, but needs flat land (and standing next to person), only revives 50% life, and has about 50% chance
Raise 1 - high chance of revival, uses some MP, somewhat fast (not instant), only 50% life
Raise 2 - 100% life, but uses lots of MP, slow spell, 50% chance

I'm sure they spend about 30 minutes to an hour trying to balance just these four skills.</div>

 #33284  by Agent 57
 Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:30 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Any of you guys ever play Metal Marines for SNES? One of my all-time strategy favorites.</div>

 #33293  by kent
 Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:49 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>there's too many ways not to die in FFT for any of that to matter.</div>