The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Healing, the most broken concept of RPG

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #33406  by Don
 Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:06 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I'm sure most of you notice breaking RPG engines is something of a hobby of mine. People often talk about how games are imbalanced because you have arbitraily powerful attacks like Knights of the Round or whatever, but what's often overlooked is the ability to heal. The basic premise of healing is simple. You give up some of your MP or whatever your game calls it to exchange for some HP. Problem is, in just about every RPG ever designed, converting MP into HP is horribly efficient. So efficient that it's always the right choice to do, and this strategy is necessarily optimal, because if it's not, the battle would not be winnable (at least not without more leveling up). Let's not even talk about items which are like get out of jail cards. The existence of this easily discoverable optimal battle plan makes battles trivial. You can mix things up by putting status attacks or special abilities, but that just means some other MP has to be conserved to deal with them. If a conservative healing strategy doesn't work, then it's usually the case that no other strategy will work at all.

There are multiple problems that needs to be addressed in order to make a RPG where healing isn't the best strategy. Until then, all games are basically broken because you can beat every one of them by just healing your person whenever they get low enough that the next strong attack can kill them.

1. Enemies do too much damage. Almost all RPG enemies to do too much damage. When things can kill you in a relatively short time (3-4 turns say) you have no choice but to heal constantly. Grandia and Chrono Cross are probably the two exceptions to this as it actually takes a while for most bosses to kill you, but of course they're completely trivial if you use healing at all. Clearly you can't make a game without any kind of healing because then the boss will necessarily have to be unable to kill you before you can kill them. The best solution I can think of is that everything should be % based to hit. In Final Fantasy Tactics there's plenty of attacks that can take off 50% or more of your life but unless you're a Calculator you certainly don't heal everyone that drops below 50%. It's just too costly, and attacks won't always land anyway.

2. The person doing the healing should be very vulnerable. Tactics probably did this the best. A healer needs to be well protected. With many games healing is instanteous and therefore risk free. You really need a real time system, or at least very fine grained rounds (like Chrono Cross or Tactics) in order to create a meaningful opportunity to hurt the healer. There also needs to be some kind of tactical manuver so there can be a meaningful effort to protect the healer as opposed to just hoping the enemy will randomly not choose to attack the healer casting a spell.

3. The ability to mitigate damage should degrade over time. If you got a whole in the middle of your body, I don't care if you cast a heal spell, an elixir, or nanoclue to put it back together, it should still hurt. Breath of Fire 3 had moves that lowered your max HP for the duration of the fight and those kind of drawback should be applied to healing. This also allows you to make bosses that cannot kill your characters fast but still remains a challenge because over time your ability to defend steadily deteriates.

Ideally I'd like to see a game where it isn't always the best thing to do to heal everyone whenever possible. Tactics is about the closest I think of that fits this category, assuming you're not using Calculators or Chemists or Monks.</div>
 #33415  by Tortolia
 Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:39 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Some basic tenets:

1) There is full locational damage. Legs, arms, hands, abdomen, chest, back, tail (if you play a race with tails), neck, right eye, left eye, head. There is ALSO nerve damage caused by using magic improperly.

2) There is both external and internal damage. Some attacks might only cause an external wound, but if you get hit with a big club or something, you'll take internal damage as well from the bruising.

3) Sufficient damage in a location causes bleeding of various severity. External bleeders can be tended with first aid skill. Depending on your skills and the location of the wound (chest bleeders are easiest; hand, eye, and back wounds are very difficult), you can TEMPORARILY stop the bleeding. If you're very good and skill surpasses the level needed to work on a particular wound, you can stop the bleeding for minutes at a time, and actually reduce the overall bleeding somewhat; if you're inadequate for the task at hand, you'll either put on a bandage that stops it for a very brief time, at which point it bleeds even worse, or simply be unable to tend it at all. Internal bleeders can't be tended, obviously.

4) Wounds left bleeding for a long time can become infected. This can be a VERY VERY bad thing. It prevents the practice of getting one tiny bleeding wound and tending it for the rest of your character's life.

5) It is possible to lose body parts entirely through damage. One of my less favorite treasure chest traps in the game is the razor trap; botch a disarm attempt and a razor chops off your hand and leaves a rather profusely bleeding stump. I've heard rumors that it's also possible to lose your head the same way, though I've heard conflicting reports whether that happens if you keep fucking around with the trap after losing a hand or if higher difficulty boxes can just do that on the first screwup.

6) Herbs can be foraged and bought to heal injuries. For now this is just internal and external wounds; nerve damage herbs will be introduced with the alchemy/foraging rewrite down the line. Healed wounds aren't gone forever; they leave scars. Scars don't actually threaten you physically, they just screw up your ability to perform tasks. Scar healing herbs are purchasable only.

7) As a companion to number 6, wounds affect your performance. High levels of nerve damage will just affect everything you do. Hand, eye, and arm wounds prevent you from doing some tasks like playing an instrument or juggling. If you have a severely mangled leg, you might have trouble standing, let alone moving around. Etc.

8) In addition to locational damage, there is an overall "vitality" level, determined by your character's stamina. Most deaths are vitality deaths - when vitality hits zero, your character dies. Being hit by critters drains vitality, bleeding drains vitality, poison causes internal damage and vitality loss, etc. Vitality comes back slowly by itself, provided you're not losing more than you naturally regain.



Here's the kicker of the system and the best part: ONLY ONE GUILD GETS HEALING SPELLS.

Yes, that's right. There's ten guilds in the game, and only one guild can cast heals. This is the Empath guild. They are unique to Simutronics games - they heal by forming a link with a wounded patient and taking the wounds to themselves. (Oh, you've got a gaping hole in your arm? Here, I'll take that from you OWWWWWWW)

Empaths get various curing spells - spells to treat wounds, scars, cure poison, cure disease, and some other fun ones. There's a spell that creates a heart link where the empath actually slows the heart rate of the patient down to slow bleeding and vitality loss. There's spells to restore vitality, etc, etc.

So why wouldn't everyone be an empath if they're the only class that can fully cure themselves?

EMPATHS CANNOT FIGHT.

This isn't a player honor thing. Empaths literally can't fight. Because their healing skills are based entirely on the concept of forming empathic bonds with patients to take their wounds, they are acutely sensitive to pain, and cannot bear to inflict it on others. If they attack a creature, they get empathic shock - the loss of healing abilities for a certain amount of time (they also get a nifty little scar on their soul that other empaths can detect). If they actually KILL a creature, they PERMANENTLY lose their healing capabilities. I'm not sure what options a permanently shocked Empath has for continued play - they wouldn't be able to advance further in the Empath guild, and I'm not sure if they'd be able to go join another guild or not.



I think I've covered most aspects of the system, but as you can see, it's very complex - but very, very rewarding. If you're a cautious player who forages and buys a lot of herbs, and is careful about not backfiring magic and blowing out your nerves, you could go for months without needing to see an empath; conversely, you could run by the guild after every hunting trip to get a quick cleanup.

Like I said, it wouldn't work outside of the context of a MMORPG - can you imagine the "fun" if Yuna couldn't cause any damage at all to anyone else in the game?</div>
 #33419  by Kupek
 Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:40 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I have been thinking about this off and on during the day, and I came to conclusions I found interesting.

First, I think it might be helpful to think in terms of a classic, proven game. Analyzing why it is so might be helpful. I chose chess. One constant in chess is that the number of pieces in play either stays the same or decreases; it never increases. A pawn can change, but that is not an increase in the number of pieces in play.

This, I think, is analgous to our removal of healing from RPG combat. Removing it entirely would have some interesting consequences. "Normal" amounts of damage characters take during battle would have to change. (Most enemies never heal anyway, so it only effects the exceptional enemies, like bosses.) Like in chess, hurting your opponent becomes permanent. Once you have been harmed, you now have to change your strategy to accomodate your new handicap. This would change the way RPG battles are fought - like in chess, every move is important and will play a part in determining the final outcome.

I would be interested in playing a game that used this approach. However, I would want each battle to be a seperate "match" - that is, you gain all of your HP, MP or whatever back after the battle is over. I would find it frustrating, not fun, if that were not the case.</div>

 #33420  by the Gray
 Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:54 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Wouldn't a game like that be similar to Shining Force, but with no healing?</div>

 #33422  by Kupek
 Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:12 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Never played Shining Force, can't say.</div>

 #33426  by the Gray
 Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:05 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>If you like Strat RPGs, SF2 for the Genesis was one of the best.</div>

 #33436  by Don
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:59 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>There's usually plenty of time to heal unless you're on the hard difficulty, or dealing with Freeze 4s, but that's just downright cheap</div>
 #33437  by Don
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:06 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I mean, those little guys are supposed to weaken you so you're not in top shape by the time you get to the top guy. In fact it'd be nice if there's a game where you getting weakened along the way is part of the balancing factor... e.g. the boss might not be super tough but by the time you get there you might only have 2 people in good condition or whatever.</div>
 #33440  by Don
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:27 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Though there definitely needs to be a few more damage class system. The current HP covers all creates the wonder heal miracles that can bring a guy from the brink of death (sometimes death itself, depending on how game treats HP = 0) to top shape with 2 spells (sometimes 1, in games with a Full-life type spell). Any high level attack, whether it's your hero's super duper move or the evil boss's super magic attack of doom, should inflict some kind of permanent damage, or at least damage that won't just go away when you pop down your magical heal spell. BTW, I do advocate the enemy being able to heal themselves too. Now, what's to stop enemy and you from just using your permanent damage attacks all the time? Clearly the game has to be weighted such that normal attacks are better than the permanent damage type attacks, and that there's a reasonable chance to stop healing on for both sides assuming no one makes a bad mistake. When dealing with real time or finely grained rounds, requiring a charge time on strong moves should balance it pretty well. While you do a decent amount of permanent damage, if you just randomly try to charge a super move you'll be taking way more normal damage and with nontrivial healing, this should force characters to find a good balance.</div>

 #33441  by Tortolia
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:45 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>No, a complex system isn't necessary, but it's a hell of a lot of fun. I like having to monitor my vitals, having to determine what type of healing is necessary, and make judgment calls as to when I need to get something taken care of. Depth is a good thing if it adds to the overall experience.</div>

 #33451  by Kupek
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:40 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>But if they're too easy, there is little strategy needed, which was what I was trying to add.</div>
 #33498  by Don
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:15 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The random battles shouldn't require too much strategy nor should they wear you down very much individually especially if you're expected to fight quite a few of them before getting to the boss.</div>

 #33499  by Don
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:19 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I'm not exactly impressed with RPG engine's ability to even do a simple system, so I think they better start off simple</div>