The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Why do you say RPGs are challenging?

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #33438  by Don
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:13 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>This is sort of a response to one of Zeus's posts buried down there (on how nothing's challenging these days) but it's something that's been bugging me. What makes a RPG hard? Today's RPG are hard only because they require you to level more. You can make a game where the boss kills you in two hits or even one and yes this boss would be very hard, but it requires no tactics to defeat it other than either:

1. Luck
2. Level up some more

When you say you want a hard RPG, most of you are actually saying you want a game where you've to go around in circles for hours before you stand a chance on the boss. That is not the type of RPG I want. I think Diablo 2 has the difficulty part figured out pretty well, though it does have the advantage of being real time which gives considerably more flexibility. Until your character becomes just grossly overpowered (usually level 30+), leveling up does not yield significant advantages to the current battle. Yes you get a couple more HP and your attacks do a little bit more damage but your physical level rarely makes a battle outright trivial. This should be the same for RPG. The boss should provide a decent challenge whether you've been spending the last 3 hours XPing or if you run every other battle. Of course the former should have an easier time than the latter, but not significantly so.

Star Ocean 2 on Universe mode has regular enemies that can kill you in one or two hits. To the casual player this may seem *hard*. Of course if you understand the game mechanics and have the proper skills equipped, it's every bit as easy as the normal mode. In fact I beat Normal at level 110 the first time I played, and beat the game on Universe on level 80 even though the boss has twice as much HP and does around twice as much damage too, with the same equipment!</div>

 #33439  by Eric
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:16 am
<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>Hmmm, I can't argue this. Any other takers? :)</div>

 #33442  by G-man Joe
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:55 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Zeus....Don has laideth the smacketh on ye! =8^) Yes, Don. I level up so much that my heroes make the boss look like lightweights.</div>
 #33443  by Julius Seeker
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:08 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Then again, when I think of difficulty in an RPG, it's not even about battles, it's trying to figure out how to get through dungeons, solving puzzels and scenarios to advance the plot (as long as they tie in with the plot, or some side quest, and not just kind of thrown in together ala DQ7). Skies of Arcadia, Lufia 2, and Lunar 2: Eternal Blue are a good example of non-battle challenge (as opposed to the most mainstream RPG's such as the FF series, Chrono Trigger, and others). I know Zelda isn't an RPG, but Master Quest and Ocarina of Time are also good examples (though Master Quest, if you don't know what you're doing, you will get killed).

FF8, level doesn't even matter since the improvements to the characters are trivial, and also the higher the level, the higher the monsters level. Vagrant Story, a bit different, level ups are just plain trivial, and they are limited. Still, when I go back to play New Game+ none of the enemies seam to be a problem at all, at least around the very beginning. Vagrant Stories difficulty lies mainly in the puzzles, and also in battle strategy (playing the first time through at least).</div>
 #33445  by Zeus
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:34 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>CC did it decently well, I think, mostly because you couldn't continually use the same spells over and over again and your attacks weren't super effective either, but it's one of the few that even came close. FF9 is turning out to be easy as well, since we're only really using 1 spell from Vivi and Steiner (and occasionally the Princess) but it's mostly attacks. That's what a good difficulty is to me. I don't want another 7th Saga (no one does) and I think that levelling up is a waste of time nowadays, but I do want an RPG that requires effective and intelligent use of the resources at your disposal, so you have to work at it. That's what'll make a good difficulty in an RPG and the only one that has even touched on it recently was CC, but not THAT much</div>

 #33446  by Zeus
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:35 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I'm exactly the opposite, I don't level up at all. I beat FF7 with only Cid and Cloud over 3000 HP, and I needed to use materia to get Cloud over. I HATE levelling up</div>

 #33447  by Kupek
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I don't, and nor do I ask for them.</div>

 #33453  by the Gray
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:31 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I want another 7th Saga!</div>

 #33456  by Derithian
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:00 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>My first time through I was level 26 when I beat it....that game was cake.......</div>

 #33457  by G-man Joe
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:34 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Probably why I prefer FFTactics and Vandal Hearts. Levelling up wasn't always the key.....it was strategy.</div>

 #33458  by the Gray
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:13 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I'm still only 1/4 way through VH 2. Try Front Mission 3 too, if you can find it.</div>

 #33461  by Julius Seeker
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:56 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>7th Saga had a lot of very interesting concepts that I wish made their way into future RPG's.</div>
 #33462  by Don
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:56 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>If anything, limiting the number of attacks you have available just makes it that much easier to decide which order to use all your attacks. It doesn't matter if every turn I cast Ultima or use attack, if I end up doing the same thing then those two attacks are equally powerfuli. Chrono Cross's attack is basically the strongest attack in the game due to the way the game's set up, except you'd occassionally pop a level 3 special move or a level 5-6 spell if you've a good spellcasting ability and that's it.</div>

 #33463  by Zeus
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:01 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I found that you had to balance between your spells and attacks to get through the game without making it overly tough on yourself. I just liked how you had to use a balance of stuff, 90% of the RPGs I just use the same 3 or 4 things over and over again...</div>

 #33466  by the Gray
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:10 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Well, if Enix/Square do merge, we just might!</div>

 #33469  by Julius Seeker
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:29 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>There is a 7th Saga 2 available for SNES, it came out after the release of the N64 and didn't make it over here as a result. I played a bit of it, but I usually have a hard time handleing the language barrier since I'm fairly new to Japanese.</div>

 #33471  by the Gray
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:36 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>If only I could read Kanji. Beating 7th Saga is still my highlight achievement I think.</div>

 #33476  by Julius Seeker
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:11 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>It was definetly one of mine, but I would seriously have to say Dragon Warrior III or Final Fantasy Legend 2.</div>

 #33477  by SineSwiper
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:14 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>I hate leveling up, too, but it depends on the stat system. FFX was fun to level up.</div>
 #33481  by SineSwiper
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:48 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>FFT had this system and it works great. You can level up, but the enemies will be at the same level. The only difference is that you usually have more skills to choose from, so you still have an advantage over the enemies if you level up. But, the enemies still have a good chance of kicking your ass because their attacks do high amounts of damage, too. It's similar to the "percentage" based attack system you were thinking of, because the enemies always seem to do the same percentage of damage, no matter what the level.</div>

 #33482  by SineSwiper
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:50 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Ugh...I remember how boring that game was. Okay, next town: time to spend 3 hours leveling the fuck outta your characters. Okay, next town: repeat the same process. I got bored just watching my friend do that.</div>

 #33483  by SineSwiper
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:51 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>As usual, GMJ adds no content to the conversation.</div>

 #33484  by Zeus
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:56 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>www.zophar.net/trans . There WAS a translation at work for that one...</div>

 #33486  by G-man Joe
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:09 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>You dingle butt. Read the last sentence the reply. Here, I'll capitolize it for ya "I LEVEL UP SO MUCH THAT MY HEROES MAKE THE BOSS LOOK LIKE LIGHTWEIGHTS." Here's another "Stupid" sign for ya.</div>

 #33492  by SineSwiper
 Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:59 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>That's nice. All it does is boost your ego, and adds nothing to the original topic.</div>

 #33493  by SineSwiper
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:00 am
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>BTW, your jokes are crustier than that apple pie mom used to make, old man.</div>
 #33495  by Don
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:08 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The monsters like Tiamats clearly outpace your character growth rate by far.

I don't know if it's necessary to adjust things to your level, because if they do why have levels at all? Just have some predetermined stats you have for all encounters because that's what it ends up to be. The problem is that leveling up gives too much benefits. The leveling thing works for Tactics because most of the power in Tactics is in the skills. Leveling up gives pretty minimal HP/stat boosts so it's not a big deal.</div>
 #33496  by Don
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:11 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Attack
Your level 3 special skill
HealAll/Healing Wind/healing items of the appropriate level (I consider this one entity)
Random level 5-6 spell if you feel like using them

BTW I pretty much did auto select for the elements throughout the game and it usually gives enough healing for you to get by.

I guess if you can toss some of the level 4 status effect stuff but I never used them.

Oh yeah, having Revive doesn't hurt, but that can be considered the same entity as healing.</div>

 #33497  by Don
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:12 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>You mean bosses are supposed to be hard?</div>

 #33501  by Tortolia
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:09 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Would you two just get a fucking room and keep it off the damn boards?</div>

 #33502  by G-man Joe
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:21 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>A video game boost my ego? You must be crazy.</div>

 #33503  by G-man Joe
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:22 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>I just want them to be easy. =8^) That's why I level up. =8^D</div>

 #33504  by G-man Joe
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:23 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Fine. But I'm not paying for the room this time.</div>

 #33508  by Zeus
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:09 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I never saw it that way when i was playing. My life became much easier when I actually tried with the element system. Same can't be said for a lot of the other RPGs i've played, which don't require you to even try</div>
 #33512  by Don
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:32 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>It basically tries to fill your slots with 1 spell of every kind at the right level before trying for duplicates. The only guarantee is that you'll have a spell of your innate element if one is available, and Healing Wind, HealAll, Revive, and healing items are guaranteed a slot so you don't end up with no ability to heal. But other than that it makes no attempt to make any intelligence use of the space. It'd put stuff like Mana Call or SilenceAll which are totally useless. Level 5/6 attack spells gets a high priority even though they're fairly useless except in the hands of the few casters (but those tend to have very few element slots).

But even then it usually gave you enough to work with. It's no different than say if FF8 had a dumb auto junction system that'd junction random spells to random attributes, and you can probably get by the game too playing like this, and one day you discovered that you can actually junction the good stuff to the attribute.</div>

 #33518  by Zeus
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:21 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>That's what was good about it. For those who just wanted to play and not fiddle with the elements, you got enough. It wasn't great, but it did the job. For those of us who did fiddle with it, we could make it much more balanced. I think you're looking for the perfect system, it'll never happen</div>

 #33522  by the Gray
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 10:09 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>DW 3 and Legend 2 were great games and hard. But they had nothing on 7th Saga for pure difficulty.</div>

 #33530  by Shellie
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:48 pm
<div style='font: 11pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Can I watch?? :) hehe</div>

 #33532  by G-man Joe
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:37 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Heh...well....you might dump Sine and kidnap me if you saw me. =8^)</div>

 #33533  by SineSwiper
 Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:29 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>No, the NT post, you dingbat! Man, you can be so dense sometimes.</div>

 #33559  by G-man Joe
 Thu Feb 27, 2003 8:16 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Which NT post? Jeez there's like....one two three five six seven of them. =8^)</div>

 #33586  by Julius Seeker
 Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:08 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Well, FFL2 was fairly easy.... Dragon Warrior III when I played it seamed a great deal harder than Seventh Saga, but then again, I think it's because I knew a lot more about RPG's when 7th Saga came around.</div>