The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • Downfalls of MMORPG economies and why it's not solveable

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #36684  by Don
 Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:05 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Algorithm is one of my interests so the economies of MMORPG actually interest me greatly, since they are basically a different type of the Online Auction problem. The Online Auction problem can be roughly defined as: Given an infinite supply of goods (i.e. MP3s), how are you supposed to sell them to a finite number of buyers who each may have different amounts they're willing pay for so that you have an optimal return. This problem is believed to be not computationally solveable, and thus this is why MMORPG economy, at the end, are destined to be unfair.

Of course, when I say infinite, I don't mean you really have an infinite number of Chain Mail +2 or Fire Crystals or whatever items you use in Final Fantasy 11. Infinite here means that the cost of obtaining more supply is very negligible. I have never played FF11, but I'll go out on a limb to say that the stuff you commonly buy in the auction houses of your game isn't something that'd take months of playing just to get. If you didn't buy your new armor from the auction house I'd guess that your character will still see that armor on sale again pretty soon.

Given finite supply, any good will reach an equilibrium as dictated by basic economics, so this part doesn't apply to things where people know are in limited quantity, i.e. that godly sword of slaughtering that drops once every 3 months will certainly retain its proper value. However, for most goods that are traded in MMORPG, they can be considered as an infinite supply good.

Given any economy, it is necessary to know what the demand is, because it is not possible to have a fair economy if no one even knows what's the right price to sell at.

Suppose I am willing to pay 3 times of the *market price* as dictated by the recent selling history of an item to outfit my new character. However, I know that this armor isn't going to disappear anytime soon. If I don't buy it now someone else will still be selling it elsewhere. From what I gather the AH has bids, but certainly if I was bidding, I wouldn't start bidding at 3X the market value. Assuming no selling scandals to drive up prices, it can be reasonably expected that I end up buying my items at a price roughly equal to the *market price* (possibly higher). This means, no matter how desperate someone wants something, the market price never actually goes up significantly, if at all. Note that me here paying the market price is actually fair. I shouldn't expect to have to pay 3X market price on something that has no shortage of, even though I am willing to pay 3X. This system works fine for people who are willing to pay more than the market price because they will end up getting the market price.

Now suppose I want the item but I don't want to pay the market price. Once again, I am aware that there's a lot of people selling this thing. Further, as all MMORPG tend to make items have very little resale value to merchants to encourage economic activity, I also know that you do not have an easy way to convert your armor to the *market price*. Since your item sold to a merchant is probably worth a trivial amount of money, you will, in theory, be happy with any price that's more than what the merchant pays for. Assuming I do not have a dire need of this item (and I probably do not, since I am not willing to pay what the last 10 guys paid for), I can offer you a price below the market price, and eventually, one of the seller will decide that since I can't sell this at the old price anyway, and it's not easily convertable to any other form of currency, they will sell at the new, lower price.

So, in this economy, we see that I have a lot to gain if I lie about how much I'm willing to pay, for the buyer cannot tell the difference whether I am really only willing to buy something if it's at a certain price, or if I am merely pretending. Even if I was willing to pay 3X the market price, as long as I am willing to wait a bit, I can pay a lot less if I pretend I don't even want to pay at the market price. Essentially, this is an economy where the buyers can gain by lying about what their demand is. Any solution that is based on this false demand is not going to be fair, because the buyers can lie arbitrarily about what they're willing to pay for.

So here is why this problem is not solveable. There is no poly-time (i.e. solution that can be executed in realistic time) algorithm to get people to tell the truth. Actually, it is not clear if such an algorithm even exists. It'd certainly be one amazing algorithm to get everyone to tell the truth in an environment where lying has very visible gains, and no possible consequence for lying (because lying about what I'm willing to pay for an item isn't illegal).

Depending on your player demographics (you could have a lot of totally honest people playing, or you could be dealing with the Diablo 2 trading channel people) and supply availability (less supply lowers the incentive to lying, since if you believe the supply will run out you won't lie as much due to fear of items running out), the time it takes everyone to realize that lying helps them get lower price goods may vary significantly. But ultimately, people will figure out that lying helps them in such an economy, and when that happens there is no possible way you can undo this. If you have an economy of liars, it cannot possibly be fair because you don't know what people are willing to pay for.

The current cutting edge solution (after all, this also describes the market of selling MP3s, and that is certainly a market eveyone wants to make some money from) is to sell everything so cheaply that people will not have incentive to lie. There is actually an algorithm that can figure out what price to sell it so that it's cheap enough most of the buyers you're interested will figure your prices aren't going to get any lower so might as well buy it. Note that you're still taking a huge loss here because you've to drop your price so low so that most of your customers will stop trying to drive it down further (and for those who do, you just ignore them). It's basically like say I'm running a car dealership and all my cars are priced 1/3rd of the normal price but no haggling is allowed. Sure some jerks out there probably still want it for even less than that, but most people will figure that's good enough. Interesting enough, the ~$1 figure people charge for MP3s is derived by this kind of analysis. Someone actually figured out the ~$1 figure is the price you should charge MP3s so that the people who actually want this stuff but wasn't going to actually go out and buy a CD for it will be willing to pay this price, and anyone who isn't willing to pay that much is not worth lowering your price to get.

The EQ economy, being one of the oldest MMORPG around, actually resembles this solution quite closely. Although certainly the people selling the items didn't do this mathematical analysis, prices eventually swing to the point where it's cheap enough that people have no incentive to pretend they're not interested.</div>

 #36689  by Derithian
 Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:35 pm
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>Head, ass, out. it'll help you in the long run. all we need to say is play the damn game before you bash on it. because you have no idea in hell what you are talking about and it shows.</div>
 #36699  by Derithian
 Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:35 pm
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>
Algorithm is one of my interests so the economies of MMORPG actually interest me greatly, since they are basically a different type of the Online Auction problem. The Online Auction problem can be roughly defined as: Given an infinite supply of goods (i.e. MP3s), how are you supposed to sell them to a finite number of buyers who each may have different amounts they're willing pay for so that you have an optimal return. This problem is believed to be not computationally solveable, and thus this is why MMORPG economy, at the end, are destined to be unfair.
I agree with you that there are problems in MMORPG economies because of the way people act. I remember the eq economy. It close to what the FFXI economy is during peak US hours. thing s are loballed like crazy. The US Players don't have the patience to wait for things to sell so they sell it for like half of what it's worth. During japanese ours they only just charge under market price. It's just like playing the market. It fluctuates througout the day. It's interesting to watch.
Of course, when I say infinite, I don't mean you really have an infinite number of Chain Mail +2 or Fire Crystals or whatever items you use in Final Fantasy 11. Infinite here means that the cost of obtaining more supply is very negligible. I have never played FF11, but I'll go out on a limb to say that the stuff you commonly buy in the auction houses of your game isn't something that'd take months of playing just to get. If you didn't buy your new armor from the auction house I'd guess that your character will still see that armor on sale again pretty soon.
I agree with you here to. It's very true that things like fire crystals you can collect a stack of 12 in about 30 minutes to an hour but people are always looking for them because of the people who enjoy crafting just want to craft and don't want to run around grabbing stuff. While it'll cost you 100k or more to start making a profit with crafting after that point you can make items for 1000 that will sell for 30000. The reason people buy the things on the ah that they could find with a half hour of balling is because they want to do the work now.
Given finite supply, any good will reach an equilibrium as dictated by basic economics, so this part doesn't apply to things where people know are in limited quantity, i.e. that godly sword of slaughtering that drops once every 3 months will certainly retain its proper value. However, for most goods that are traded in MMORPG, they can be considered as an infinite supply good.
Very true. In FFXI so far I've seen that things stay relatively close to the market price. It's like this though, if you get a rare item outside of Sand'oria it will sell for more in Windurst because it can't be found close to Windurst adn for them to get it they would have to travel to the other end of the world/. Don't you agree Don that this is a relatively good thing. Because naturally this item will be seen more in Sand'oria that it will in Windurst so that drives the price in Sand down. It's like a real market is. the more of one item in a town, the cheaper it seems to get.
Given any economy, it is necessary to know what the demand is, because it is not possible to have a fair economy if no one even knows what's the right price to sell at.
exactly as I said above. because having more of an item in a city actually does drive the price down. usually not a huge amount but sometimes it is.
Suppose I am willing to pay 3 times of the *market price* as dictated by the recent selling history of an item to outfit my new character. However, I know that this armor isn't going to disappear anytime soon. If I don't buy it now someone else will still be selling it elsewhere. From what I gather the AH has bids, but certainly if I was bidding, I wouldn't start bidding at 3X the market value. Assuming no selling scandals to drive up prices, it can be reasonably expected that I end up buying my items at a price roughly equal to the *market price* (possibly higher). This means, no matter how desperate someone wants something, the market price never actually goes up significantly, if at all. Note that me here paying the market price is actually fair. I shouldn't expect to have to pay 3X market price on something that has no shortage of, even though I am willing to pay 3X. This system works fine for people who are willing to pay more than the market price because they will end up getting the market price.
What I said above also applies here. Things keep their market price but the market valu does fluctuate. Say an item sells in a store for 1000. If you look at the prive history most often it will be selling at 800-900 or depending on the items stats, it can sell for evel less or even more. The thing that bothers me is that they call it an auctuion house and it is not an auction. If it was an auction I'd put everything up at 1 gil and let people bid like crazy on it. It's more of a store that the first person that meets your price gets the item. so if you want to sell things fast and cheap you can.
Now suppose I want the item but I don't want to pay the market price. Once again, I am aware that there's a lot of people selling this thing. Further, as all MMORPG tend to make items have very little resale value to merchants to encourage economic activity, I also know that you do not have an easy way to convert your armor to the *market price*. Since your item sold to a merchant is probably worth a trivial amount of money, you will, in theory, be happy with any price that's more than what the merchant pays for. Assuming I do not have a dire need of this item (and I probably do not, since I am not willing to pay what the last 10 guys paid for), I can offer you a price below the market price, and eventually, one of the seller will decide that since I can't sell this at the old price anyway, and it's not easily convertable to any other form of currency, they will sell at the new, lower price.
I won't even say anything here I'll just say this is exactly right. you sell to a merchant you can get 100 gil total for soemthing but if you sello on the AH you can get 2k or more. so you are right that selling to merchance is pointless and stupid but on the ah if 1 person sells at a lowball price it doesn't lower the value because of the fact that people still sell the items for what they are worth. Americans lowball but the price goes right back to where it should be once the japanese get on.thigs retain their value unless the AH ois flooded with items sometimes. When the AH is flooded the market price does drop and then comes back up over time. It's like a real market. it fluctuates constantly.
So, in this economy, we see that I have a lot to gain if I lie about how much I'm willing to pay, for the buyer cannot tell the difference whether I am really only willing to buy something if it's at a certain price, or if I am merely pretending. Even if I was willing to pay 3X the market price, as long as I am willing to wait a bit, I can pay a lot less if I pretend I don't even want to pay at the market price. Essentially, this is an economy where the buyers can gain by lying about what their demand is. Any solution that is based on this false demand is not going to be fair, because the buyers can lie arbitrarily about what they're willing to pay for.
Now this is stupid. this is a paragraph that you would know is just a load of crap if you actually played the game and investigated a little. Or read what I said above. The The market prices fluctuate but they never fluctuate to and amazingly large amount. They flucuate at very small intervals and fluctuate slowly. like a real market does.
So here is why this problem is not solveable. There is no poly-time (i.e. solution that can be executed in realistic time) algorithm to get people to tell the truth. Actually, it is not clear if such an algorithm even exists. It'd certainly be one amazing algorithm to get everyone to tell the truth in an environment where lying has very visible gains, and no possible consequence for lying (because lying about what I'm willing to pay for an item isn't illegal).
But there are no gains to lying. People can't see the price you asked for and won't be able to buy it if you jack up the price. Because they put down a number and it buys the item that is closes to thir price that is above the reserve privce. If you set your reserve price to much more than something is worth it will never sell. That is why it is pointless to jack up you reserve price because your item will never sell and will mjust be returned to you after 7 days.
Depending on your player demographics (you could have a lot of totally honest people playing, or you could be dealing with the Diablo 2 trading channel people) and supply availability (less supply lowers the incentive to lying, since if you believe the supply will run out you won't lie as much due to fear of items running out), the time it takes everyone to realize that lying helps them get lower price goods may vary significantly. But ultimately, people will figure out that lying helps them in such an economy, and when that happens there is no possible way you can undo this. If you have an economy of liars, it cannot possibly be fair because you don't know what people are willing to pay for.
read above. And I do suggest you find soemone who has it and try the game out. get on and actually watch the AH and markets. You'll see that the lying has no merits. I do agree that THE D2 economy was Bull shit but you can't compare ffXI's working economy to that of Diablo 2. it's nothing even remotely similar.
The current cutting edge solution (after all, this also describes the market of selling MP3s, and that is certainly a market eveyone wants to make some money from) is to sell everything so cheaply that people will not have incentive to lie. There is actually an algorithm that can figure out what price to sell it so that it's cheap enough most of the buyers you're interested will figure your prices aren't going to get any lower so might as well buy it. Note that you're still taking a huge loss here because you've to drop your price so low so that most of your customers will stop trying to drive it down further (and for those who do, you just ignore them). It's basically like say I'm running a car dealership and all my cars are priced 1/3rd of the normal price but no haggling is allowed. Sure some jerks out there probably still want it for even less than that, but most people will figure that's good enough. Interesting enough, the ~$1 figure people charge for MP3s is derived by this kind of analysis. Someone actually figured out the ~$1 figure is the price you should charge MP3s so that the people who actually want this stuff but wasn't going to actually go out and buy a CD for it will be willing to pay this price, and anyone who isn't willing to pay that much is not worth lowering your price to get.
This isn't true at all. after everything I already said you should understand that. Not only that your recomendation to fixing the economy is quite stupid. and it's funny that you are suggesting that the FFX! economy is broken when it isn't at all. It's the only economy I've seen that actually resembles a real economy. Prices fluctuate gradually and make it easy to gague what people are will ing to pay. I do suggest you try it out. It's a working economy so far. Once it breaks I'll post about it but so far it has been fantastic and responds to what people are doing and buying in the world.
The EQ economy, being one of the oldest MMORPG around, actually resembles this solution quite closely. Although certainly the people selling the items didn't do this mathematical analysis, prices eventually swing to the point where it's cheap enough that people have no incentive to pretend they're not interested.
Why the hell is this a fix though man. devaluing everything is a bull shit economy. That's just retarded. Things should at lest be sold to close to what they are worth but you are saying that the only way to have a working economy is to make everything worthless. not true at all. It's just a retarded statement. Now I know you love eq but to tell you the truth, I did too. But at least research before you make invalid stupid points like this.

In summation I agree with a lot of stuff you say but I also think a lot of your problems have been solved in ffXI. that's part of the reason I love the game. Because of it's economic system and party based gameplay. also from now on I'm going to stop posting snippy ass holeish comments and actually respond to what you say and hopefully we can help you understand that other games do have things working right. and not just EQ.</div>
 #36700  by Kupek
 Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:46 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>And that is to not have a true economy. That is, items can ony sell for pre-set amounts (maybe "high", "low" and "medium"). How much an item can be sold for could be dynamic, but there would likely have to be an administrator behind the scenes fixing prices. Since this is no longer an economy, problem solved.

I doubt anyone would like this, though. In order for it to remain effective, players wouldn't be able to exchange items without selling them, and nor would other players be able to pick up items another player just decidedly to randomly drop. That's probably more restriction than people want in an online RPG.</div>

 #36721  by SineSwiper
 Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:17 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>"blah, blah, blah... I have never played FF11...blah, blah, blah" Shut up and quit writing 20 paragraphs about a game you never even fucking played!</div>

 #36722  by Tessian
 Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:20 pm
<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>do you actually believe you're going to convince anyone here that you're not an EQ Zealot who thinks he knows everything there is to know about gaming when he really doesn't have a clue? Stop wasting your breath</div>

 #36724  by Kupek
 Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:26 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>If you actually bothered to read the post, then you'd notice that he's talking about online economies in general, not FF11 specificaly...</div>

 #36726  by G-man Joe
 Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:59 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>I thought something was amiss.</div>

 #36729  by SineSwiper
 Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:01 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>But he's never played FFXI, which SOLVES any economy problem he's talking about. And the EQ economy is shit. I've played the game twice before.</div>

 #36730  by Kupek
 Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:10 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>This is getting comical. Don has clearly stated several times that his rationale only applies once an online RPG has matured; FF11 is too young. Is Don right? I don't know, but we'll have to wait until FF11 has been out for a few years to find out.</div>

 #36739  by kent
 Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:32 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>well i used to respect a lot of what you say around here but you obviously know jack about FFXI's economy and Auction House. Zip it.</div>

 #36744  by Tortolia
 Sat Dec 27, 2003 9:48 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>The problem lies from the fact that Don is blasting the game for a problem that he THINKS it has, but nobody can be sure for a long, long, time. It's bloody stupid.</div>

 #36746  by Kupek
 Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:23 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>What started all of this was a silly jab on his part - the patch comment - but I think he eventually segued into an honest academic discussion of online economies.</div>

 #36747  by SineSwiper
 Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:32 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Too young? The game has been out in Japan for over a year and a half (May 2002). There's already an expansion for it.</div>

 #36749  by SineSwiper
 Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:37 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>What he's doing is building a straw man argument for a game he's never played and claiming that EQ solves this problem because it's the oldest MMO out there.</div>

 #36750  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:33 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>How exactly does your reply add anything to the conversation at all?</div>

 #36751  by G-man Joe
 Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:47 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>I got yer back, Don! Even though I have absolutely no clue as to what yer talking about coz I'm not used to reading full page essays at the Shrine. I got A.D.D. ya know. Hey look at that!</div>

 #36754  by SineSwiper
 Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:30 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Ditto. 100% agree with you.</div>