The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Beat Echoes last night, final thoughts...

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #41660  by Agent 57
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:16 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>First and foremost, very good game, no major complaints. Found it to be ridiculously similar to Prime in control and layout - probably the first time I've ever started playing a sequel and wondered if I'd put the original in by mistake (not that that's a bad thing in this case).

I liked the level and artistic design, and thought it played very well. As far as the new weapons are concerned - the Light Beam ruled, the Seeker Missile system was kind of hard to use but still nifty, the Annihilator was cool, and the Dark Beam was pretty much useless (especially when trying to hit Light-aligned Quad CMs or freaking Emperor Ing). I have mixed feelings about the ammo system - it really didn't change the way I used the other beams all that much, it just meant that I spent more time blowing up Ingcaches and boxes with the Dark Beam to refill my Light Beam ammo. It just served to complicate things, if you ask me - I hope they go back to the normal beam system in 3.

It also still annoys me how small the time and space windows are to try to actually do damage to a boss in these games - there are fewer things more annoying than spending 20 seconds holding down the charge button waiting for a boss to be invulnerable, firing when you finally get your chance but *missing* because of either time or something blocking your shot, and then you have to wait/dodge/charge for <i>another</i> 20 seconds before you can do anything else.

And there is NOTHING more annoying than a Rezbit. Dear god I hated those fucking things. A lot of the normal enemies were pretty hard aside from the Rezbits, too - Dark Pirate Commandos, Hunter Ing, Grenchlers, Dark Bloggs, Quad MBs, stuff like that - the overall difficulty seemed to be harder than Prime 1.

Also, I thought it was weaker in the story department. Where was the big reveal at the end of the game where it's finally confirmed (it never is, if you think about it) that Dark Samus is really Metroid Prime wearing the Phazon Suit? How was somebody who never played Prime 1 supposed to know that? Actually, where were <i>any</i> interesting plot developments near the end of the game? I mean, when you can predict exactly how a game is going to end a quarter of the way through it, that's not an interesting story in my book.

Anyway, I did like it - as I said, these are all minor quibbles. Just wanted to throw my two cents in the hat in the ring.

<i>-57</i></div>

 #41666  by Zeus
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:35 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Personally, I thought that the sequel improved in every way on the prequel, aside from the controls, which were exactly the same (beat it on the weekend: 20:50, 88% scans, 76% items). The one quabble I have is the collection of the keys before the final boss, they gotta get rid of that</div>
 #41668  by Agent 57
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:57 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I'm seriously interested to hear how you thought the story in Echoes was better when there wasn't a single completely predictable plot development in the entire second half of the game. At least in Prime you were still discovering the extent of the Pirates' Phazon/Metroid experiments right up until the end - after U-Mos asks you to restore the planetary energy and defeat the Ing, that's *exactly* what you do with no deviations whatsoever!

And at least the Ice Beam was necessary to kill Metroids - the only thing the Dark Beam is good/necessary for is opening doors/portals, getting Light ammo, and pissing you off while you vainly try to shoot a light-aligned Emperor Ing.

And surprisingly, I thought the keyhunting was pretty cool. Especially with regards to the way the Keybearer Lore all made absolutely no sense for most of the game, then all of a sudden you're "oh, so THAT'S what the red words mean!"

If you choose not to elaborate, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

<i>-57</i>

P.S. I thought the whole flight suit/ponytail look was pretty cool in Zero Mission - it looked GREAT in 3D. =)</div>
 #41669  by Agent 57
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:06 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I'm seriously interested to hear how you thought the story in Echoes was better when there were nothing but completely predictable plot developments in the entire second half of the game. At least in Prime you were still discovering the extent of the Pirates' Phazon/Metroid experiments right up until the end - after U-Mos asks you to restore the planetary energy and defeat the Ing, that's *exactly* what you do with no deviations whatsoever!

And at least the Ice Beam was necessary to kill Metroids - the only thing the Dark Beam is good/necessary for is opening doors/portals, getting Light ammo, and pissing you off while you vainly try to shoot a light-aligned Emperor Ing.

And surprisingly, I thought the keyhunting was pretty cool. Especially with regards to the way the Keybearer Lore all made absolutely no sense for most of the game, then all of a sudden you're "oh, so THAT'S what the red words mean!"

If you choose not to elaborate, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

<i>-57</i>

P.S. I thought the whole flight suit/ponytail look was pretty cool in Zero Mission - it looked GREAT in 3D. =)</div>

 #41670  by Tortolia
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:27 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>On normal difficulty, resbits are a cinch. Fully charged dark shot (no combo), missile, gone. Dunno if they're more durable in hard.</div>

 #41671  by Agent 57
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:39 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Never tried the DB on them...scantext didn't mention a thing about it. When I had to kill them, I usually ended up using two freaking Super Missiles - most of the time I just ran by.</div>

 #41672  by Tortolia
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:41 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Dark beam in general was handy against slower targets simply for the freezing aspect.</div>

 #41673  by Tortolia
 Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:43 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I also got in the habit of charging at them and using the Screw Attack once I'd obtained that, hehe.</div>
 #41706  by Zeus
 Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:10 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Story - as much as I like the Space Pirate and thought they were cool, I love the premise of the new game, with the whole light and dark world thing going, the Ing, and the pirates getting all caught up in things (I love it when you first see them by the first portal and they're trying to shoot the darkness that's attacking them). Don't get me wrong, I love the story of the first, but I just preferred this one. Personal preference on this one.

Levels & Level Design - OK, this one no one can argue, IMO. The variety, layout, puzzles, look, the way the dark world mirrored the light world but wasn't the same; everything was done that much better in the sequel. This is where the real improvement in the game is IMO. Kinda like Zelda:OoT, most of the time, if you just put the effort forth, you can figure everything out you need to do, aside from the 9 keys, which took a lot more work. It was more intuitive than the first since they used the scan visor that much more. All you had to was look around, check things out, and you can basically figure it out. It was just amazing, even after the first game, which to me, is still one of the best games on the next gen systems. But that doesn't mean the sequel isn't that much better. It is. It's also these design features (along with the way you go through the game and beat many of the bosses and creatures) that makes it a first-person adventure game rather than an FPS.

Graphics - there's more variety and they're just a tad sharper. A small improvement, but you really can't do much better. Both games are among the best looking games on any next-gen system.

Difficulty and game flow - this was also improved greatly, IMO. If you noticed, you don't fight quite as often in this game, particularly in the beginning, but the battles are much more difficult, even the normal enemies. Yeah, you have your wasps and stuff that are there to replenish your stock, but the dinosaurs in the Bog, the Dark Pirate Commandos that constantly disappear, and those freakin' weird ball things in the Sanctuary (coolest freakin' level, BTW) that made you reboot your equipment, they were all much more difficult. Not insanely so, so I really like it. And I prefer the fact you actually have to do specific things to beat the bosses and that there was more multi-part bosses and they made you use your equipment more (ie. the mini-boss in the Sanctuary where you had to shoot yourself across a hanging track). Just more challenging and makes it more fun to keep changing up how it's played. That's the other major change they made which I loved.

Again, this is my opinion. I can see why a lot of people wouldn't like it as much (difficult = bad nowadays and the game was more of a refinement of the first rather than a shockingly well-done transition to 3D for the series, as the original was), but then again, I'm a Mega Man fan, so I like evolution as much as revolution (albiet, it may take a few games with the MM series :-)</div>
 #41711  by Agent 57
 Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:29 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>
Story - as much as I like the Space Pirate and thought they were cool, I love the premise of the new game, with the whole light and dark world thing going, the Ing, and the pirates getting all caught up in things (I love it when you first see them by the first portal and they're trying to shoot the darkness that's attacking them). Don't get me wrong, I love the story of the first, but I just preferred this one. Personal preference on this one.
I do agree that the premise is better in Echoes - you've got the war between the Luminoth and the Ing with the nifty dual-world thing going on, and then you add the Space Pirates, Dark Samus, and the poor GF guys into the mix as well. On the surface, more interesting than the Pirates doing Metroid experiments on the Chozo home planet (although I *loved* the fact that it was the Chozo who originally gave Samus her Power Suit).

However, as I mentioned previously but didn't really elaborate on myself, the pace of the plot in Echoes absolutely sucks. You've got the first half of the game filled with intrigue: <i>What happened to the GF guys? What are the Pirates doing here? Holy shit, that Samus clone must be Metroid Prime! Wait, there's a Luminoth left alive???</i> And it's all good. But in the second half of the game, not a single thing happens that you don't see coming from a mile away. <i>Whee, I'm bringing energy back to the Temples and the Luminoth are thanking me. Yay, I'm finding the keys to enter the Dark version of the Great Temple. Look, I'm fighting the leader of the Ing in their final stronghold. Check it out, Dark Samus is attacking me again. Woo, I say.</i>

I actually had trouble motivating myself to play the game during the second half, simply because I didn't particularly care to find out what happened next. (Compare that to my experience with Snake Eater, when I had no clue what the game was going to throw at me next and thus couldn't *stop* playing.) I'm not saying that the game wasn't fun, or brilliant, or excellent - during the second half, it just wasn't very interesting.
Levels & Level Design - OK, this one no one can argue.
I wasn't even going to bother trying, because I thought they were better in Echoes as well.
Graphics - there's more variety and they're just a tad sharper. A small improvement, but you really can't do much better. Both games are among the best looking games on any next-gen system.
I wasn't arguing this either.
Difficulty and game flow - this was also improved greatly, IMO. If you noticed, you don't fight quite as often in this game, particularly in the beginning, but the battles are much more difficult, even the normal enemies. Yeah, you have your wasps and stuff that are there to replenish your stock, but the dinosaurs in the Bog, the Dark Pirate Commandos that constantly disappear, and those freakin' weird ball things in the Sanctuary (coolest freakin' level, BTW) that made you reboot your equipment, they were all much more difficult. Not insanely so, so I really like it. And I prefer the fact you actually have to do specific things to beat the bosses and that there was more multi-part bosses and they made you use your equipment more (ie. the mini-boss in the Sanctuary where you had to shoot yourself across a hanging track). Just more challenging and makes it more fun to keep changing up how it's played. That's the other major change they made which I loved.
The boss fights were nothing short of brilliant, and a lot of the puzzles to find items were very clever. The game also did a pretty good job of making the backtrack-necessary places easy to remember - every time I found a new item, I would remember the places I could now go but couldn't before. I really only forgot about five places - the five missile expansions that I missed and used an FAQ to find so I wouldn't spend six hours aimlessly running around with the music off - and I seriously kept the hint system turned off for most of the game.

I also didn't mind the increased difficulty like some people did - in time, I started running away from the harder monsters (like those Grenchlers in the Bog and the Rezbits in Sanctuary - you can make short work of the Commandos with the Light Beam and Dark Visor) and thus wasn't bugged all that much. I guess the only part of the difficulty that really annoys me is the *way* they made it hard, which usually amounted to having to deal with all of the boss' attacks while they're invulnerable for 90% of the fight (it's similar in style to the difficulty of Viewtiful Joe, now that I think about it).
Again, this is my opinion. I can see why a lot of people wouldn't like it as much (difficult = bad nowadays and the game was more of a refinement of the first rather than a shockingly well-done transition to 3D for the series, as the original was), but then again, I'm a Mega Man fan, so I like evolution as much as revolution (albiet, it may take a few games with the MM series :-)
As I said in my original message, I liked the game a lot - I just thought the quality of the writing/pacing was much weaker, which I guess affected my overall impression of it more than I thought. Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

<i>-57</i></div>

 #41719  by Zeus
 Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:49 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I'm one of the few here that likes long discussions, so no prob. One last thing: I didn't mind the sparse story elements in the second half 'cause the process of proceding was rewarding enough, particularly the Sanctuary. Hardly noticed the lack of story. But that's my opinion</div>

 #41781  by Julius Seeker
 Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:29 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I found it difficult to pick up the first Metroid Prime game, but once I got into it, it was an instant favourite of mine. I am looking forward to playing the second.</div>

 #41790  by Zeus
 Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:06 am
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>The second is a great refinement of the first. If you loved the first, you'll adore the sequel</div>

 #41793  by Kupek
 Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:16 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Not necessarily. I'll post some final thoughts when I finish it.</div>