The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • "Stony US critics and Academy Award members who were privileged enough to see previews of The Return of the King in advance of the 2004 Oscars have jammed internet sites with schoolboy raves." That says it all. Thank You. My pants are gooie.

  • Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
 #57131  by G-man Joe
 Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:01 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>"Stony US critics and Academy Award members who were privileged enough to see previews of The Return of the King in advance of the 2004 Oscars have jammed internet sites with schoolboy raves." That says it all. Thank You. My pants are gooie.</div>
 #57132  by Julius Seeker
 Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:53 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>King Kong, based on the 1933 version. He spoke about wanting to use actors who acted in Lord of the Rings for this movie as well. Either way, it should be VERY interesting to see how this whole thing comes together. As for the Return of the King, it seems like just over night this weekend a media explosion on the scale of Nuclear warheads being dropped has begun for it; it's in the news, on the talkshows, everywhere you look around town, that's for sure.

Either way, in exactly 1 week I will be sitting in my seat and being among the very first people in North America to see the movie Wednesday December 17th at 12:00 AM.

If the Hobbit does come to screen this time, I sincerely hope Peter Jackson is directing it, and I would very much enjoy seeing familiar faces from the Lord of the Rings in that movie. Likely Peter Jackson will want to throw in some extras who didn't appear in the book since people will already be familiar with their characters; Arwen and Legolas, since part of the book does take place in Rivendell (where Arwen lives at this time) and a fairly major section in Legolas's homeland (He is the son of Thranduil, the King of the Silvan Elves; Thranduil is the son of the High King of the Silvan Elves, Oropher).

Just a note on Silvan Elves, these Elves do not travel back to the Western shores, because 16,000 years ago (From the time of Lord of the Rings) during the war of power (between the Gods and the Maia against Morgoth and the Balrogs) the elves were led from their original lands to the west and accross the sea to the distant west (which is where Arwen was being sent in Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers); however, some of the Elves decided to quit the journey and make their homes in Lorien (Galadriel's realm) and the great forest of Greenwood (later called Mirkwood, which is Legolas's homeland). These Elves were later known as the Silvan Elves.

9,000 years later (7,000 years before Lord of the RIngs), Morgoth attacked the Westlands and the Elf Kingdoms there, killed a High King of Elves and took the treasures known as the Silmarils, and returned to Middle Earth with them. Many of the Elves (the race of the Noldor) who followed this High King (Finwe) were enraged that the Gods (called the Valar) allowed this to happen, and they travelled back to Middle Earth, and made war on Morgoth. Morgoth, with servants such as Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs, and Sauron the Necromancer, managed to beat back the Noldor but then the Gods came with a large host of Elves from the West and in the War of Wrath, they defeated Morgoth. The Noldor were asked by the wizard Eonwe (MUCH MUCH more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman combined, Eonwe was the most powerful of their race) to return to the west, but the Noldor did not, and chose to stay. Over the next 6500 years during the 2nd and third ages the Noldor would periodically travel back to the West, but many chose to stay in exile.

The Silvan Elves were not a part of this race, and they had nothing to do with the distant West, so they didn't return there. During the second age, the South realm of Mirkwood was invaded and conquered by Sauron, many of the Elves fled North to Northern Mirkwood, or West across the River to Lorien, Sauron made his tower "Dol Guldur" there, and during the time of the Hobbit he dwealt there. After the Lord of the Rings, Dol Guldur was destroyed, and the Elves of Lothlorien, trevelled there and set up a new Kingdom, Lothlorien (which no longer had Galadrial's power, she was a Noldor who travelled back to the West after the war of the ring) faded.

Since I brought up Wizards, they are the form which the Maiar take when they are in Middle Earth (Maiar are lesser Gods, Sauron and the Balrogs were once Maiar too, warped by Morgoth, Morgoth was a real "God" and the most powerful one, he created the Orcs and all other original evil creatures; some like the Uruk Hai or Half Orcs were created by Saruman, the Olog Hai or Ogres, trolls who can survive in sunlight, were created by Sauron by Sauron; well not really created, but bred by them. Morgoth COULD actually create things in a way). Five of the wizards (good Maiar) travelled back to Middle Earth during the third age to do battle with evil, among them were Saruman the White (chief of the order), the two blue wizards (whose names I forget), Radigast the brown (disposed of by Saruman in the book of Lord of the Rings), and Gandalf the Grey (who was seen as the wisest by the Sindar Elf Lord Cirdan, the Sindar are related to the Silvan Elves, they are Elves who stayed behind on the great Migration, but who dwelt on the other side of the Misty Mountains, and now lived to the West of the Shire in a Kingdom called Lindon).

<b>Spoiler Message:<b>
<span style="background: black; color: black;">King Kong, based on the 1933 version. He spoke about wanting to use actors who acted in Lord of the Rings for this movie as well. Either way, it should be VERY interesting to see how this whole thing comes together. As for the Return of the King, it seems like just over night this weekend a media explosion on the scale of Nuclear warheads being dropped has begun for it; it's in the news, on the talkshows, everywhere you look around town, that's for sure.

Either way, in exactly 1 week I will be sitting in my seat and being among the very first people in North America to see the movie Wednesday December 17th at 12:00 AM.

If the Hobbit does come to screen this time, I sincerely hope Peter Jackson is directing it, and I would very much enjoy seeing familiar faces from the Lord of the Rings in that movie. Likely Peter Jackson will want to throw in some extras who didn't appear in the book since people will already be familiar with their characters; Arwen and Legolas, since part of the book does take place in Rivendell (where Arwen lives at this time) and a fairly major section in Legolas's homeland (He is the son of Thranduil, the King of the Silvan Elves; Thranduil is the son of the High King of the Silvan Elves, Oropher).

Just a note on Silvan Elves, these Elves do not travel back to the Western shores, because 16,000 years ago (From the time of Lord of the Rings) during the war of power (between the Gods and the Maia against Morgoth and the Balrogs) the elves were led from their original lands to the west and accross the sea to the distant west (which is where Arwen was being sent in Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers); however, some of the Elves decided to quit the journey and make their homes in Lorien (Galadriel's realm) and the great forest of Greenwood (later called Mirkwood, which is Legolas's homeland). These Elves were later known as the Silvan Elves.

9,000 years later (7,000 years before Lord of the RIngs), Morgoth attacked the Westlands and the Elf Kingdoms there, killed a High King of Elves and took the treasures known as the Silmarils, and returned to Middle Earth with them. Many of the Elves (the race of the Noldor) who followed this High King (Finwe) were enraged that the Gods (called the Valar) allowed this to happen, and they travelled back to Middle Earth, and made war on Morgoth. Morgoth, with servants such as Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs, and Sauron the Necromancer, managed to beat back the Noldor but then the Gods came with a large host of Elves from the West and in the War of Wrath, they defeated Morgoth. The Noldor were asked by the wizard Eonwe (MUCH MUCH more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman combined, Eonwe was the most powerful of their race) to return to the west, but the Noldor did not, and chose to stay. Over the next 6500 years during the 2nd and third ages the Noldor would periodically travel back to the West, but many chose to stay in exile.

The Silvan Elves were not a part of this race, and they had nothing to do with the distant West, so they didn't return there. During the second age, the South realm of Mirkwood was invaded and conquered by Sauron, many of the Elves fled North to Northern Mirkwood, or West across the River to Lorien, Sauron made his tower "Dol Guldur" there, and during the time of the Hobbit he dwealt there. After the Lord of the Rings, Dol Guldur was destroyed, and the Elves of Lothlorien, trevelled there and set up a new Kingdom, Lothlorien (which no longer had Galadrial's power, she was a Noldor who travelled back to the West after the war of the ring) faded.

Since I brought up Wizards, they are the form which the Maiar take when they are in Middle Earth (Maiar are lesser Gods, Sauron and the Balrogs were once Maiar too, warped by Morgoth, Morgoth was a real "God" and the most powerful one, he created the Orcs and all other original evil creatures; some like the Uruk Hai or Half Orcs were created by Saruman, the Olog Hai or Ogres, trolls who can survive in sunlight, were created by Sauron by Sauron; well not really created, but bred by them. Morgoth COULD actually create things in a way). Five of the wizards (good Maiar) travelled back to Middle Earth during the third age to do battle with evil, among them were Saruman the White (chief of the order), the two blue wizards (whose names I forget), Radigast the brown (disposed of by Saruman in the book of Lord of the Rings), and Gandalf the Grey (who was seen as the wisest by the Sindar Elf Lord Cirdan, the Sindar are related to the Silvan Elves, they are Elves who stayed behind on the great Migration, but who dwelt on the other side of the Misty Mountains, and now lived to the West of the Shire in a Kingdom called Lindon).</span></div>
 #57133  by Oracle
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:40 am
<div style='font: bold 10pt ; text-align: left; '>Where were the two blue wizards during LotR?</div>

 #57135  by SineSwiper
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:54 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Wow...that would make the combined series over 12 hours. Truly an epic worthwhile for the books. If only Jackson hadn't screwed with Two Towers so much...</div>

 #57137  by G-man Joe
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:06 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Two Towers Extended Edition was not screwed up. Quit echoing like those nerdy Tolkien elitists. Did you read the books?</div>

 #57138  by G-man Joe
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:13 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Tolkien didn't say except "They traveled East with Saruman and only Saruman returned." Tolkien never said what happened.</div>

 #57139  by G-man Joe
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:19 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>The Blue Wizards' names were Alatar and Pallando.</div>
 #57140  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:19 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>They went into the East of Middle Earth, which is beyond what the maps show. What happened to them there no one knows, they may have been slain, and they may have turned over to the side of Sauron and become lietenants for him. There are a lot of interesting theories out there that I have heard.</div>
 #57141  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:30 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>It's because I believe Jackson made an error in cutting The Two Towers, sure he wanted to get the plot accross, but he took out nearly ALL of the character development along the way. Also, fans of the book will like the EE a lot more because it fixes just about everything that seemed inacurate or missing from the Theatrical edition. Even Faramir is explained a lot more clearly, he is a totally different character in each edition, and the EE version of him is FAR closer than I thought it would be. The only thing I miss is the Saruman/Gandalf encounter which should have taken place at the end of the TT, but won't be seen until the beginning of the Extended Edition of the Return of the King.


very minor spoiler on the book, and possibly the movie (for those who like to speculate) below..

<b>Spoiler Message:<b>
<span style="background: black; color: black;">It's because I believe Jackson made an error in cutting The Two Towers, sure he wanted to get the plot accross, but he took out nearly ALL of the character development along the way. Also, fans of the book will like the EE a lot more because it fixes just about everything that seemed inacurate or missing from the Theatrical edition. Even Faramir is explained a lot more clearly, he is a totally different character in each edition, and the EE version of him is FAR closer than I thought it would be. The only thing I miss is the Saruman/Gandalf encounter which should have taken place at the end of the TT, but won't be seen until the beginning of the Extended Edition of the Return of the King.


very minor spoiler on the book, and possibly the movie (for those who like to speculate) below..</span></div>

 #57146  by Zeus
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:18 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>He didn't, especially if you watch the extended version. He's done a remarkable job of using screen time to tell that story. It's not an easy thing to do</div>

 #57149  by Kupek
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:38 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>No, but he has this notion that books have to remain untouched when presented in a different medium.</div>

 #57150  by G-man Joe
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:04 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>What the hell does he want? A freakin' TV series? One hour a week? For 12 months? For just the first book ALONE????</div>

 #57153  by Gentz
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:49 pm
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Anyway, you couldn't do it if you had 12 years. Books are fundamentally different from film. You either have to understand that there's no such thing as a perfect book-to-film tranlsation or throw out the whole idea altogether.</div>

 #57156  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:02 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I would actually LOVE to see the whole thing in film even though I know it's not reasonable to ask considering our state of technology. There's an old theatrical CD set where the books are read out (by Ian Holm I believe) and they use the sound effects and everything, HIGHLY entertaining.</div>

 #57162  by Oracle
 Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:35 pm
<div style='font: bold 10pt ; text-align: left; '>Oh well, Radigast got waxed, they were probably pussies too.</div>

 #57163  by G-man Joe
 Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:25 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>The BBC radio version? Yes, but even that's abridged. I have the long unabridged version - sans the sound affects. Voice is by Robert Inglis, an excellent voice actor.</div>
 #57167  by SineSwiper
 Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:03 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Like making Faramir into a spiteful bastard, or Ents saying no (then changing their mind), or the main battle not ending the way it should have (the intelligent trees engulfing the whole orc army WITHOUT any elves help)...then they are changes into the story, and they were changes that didn't even make sense.

<i>Why did Faramir suddenly let the hobbits go?</i> It didn't make sense.
<i>Why do the Ents, who talk in Old Ent (and take their sweet time doing it), say no and then change their mind in a matter of seconds?</i> It didn't make sense.
<i>Why did elves join the fray, when they was supposed to be no allies for miles?</i> It didn't make sense, and the fact that they put in some cheesy battle gags just makes it worse.

Don't get me wrong: I enjoyed the movie. However, there were a few parts where I'm going "Why the fuck did they do that?" Is it wrong to expect a story that flows correctly, especially when the parts that were wrong with the movie were just changes from the story?</div>
 #57168  by Oracle
 Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:24 am
<div style='font: bold 10pt ; text-align: left; '><i>Why did Faramir suddenly let the hobbits go? It didn't make sense.</i>

- He saw how the ring warped Frodo and knew that it would do the same or worse to him. He knew the quest to destroy it had to be completed.


<i>Why do the Ents, who talk in Old Ent (and take their sweet time doing it), say no and then change their mind in a matter of seconds? It didn't make sense.</i>

- The ents may take a long time making decisions through discussion, but when they saw the devistation first hand, it kind of woke them up. They didn't need time to discuss this time, they were enraged.


<i>Why did elves join the fray, when they was supposed to be no allies for miles? It didn't make sense.</i>

- Who said there were no allies for miles? The King. And what did the King end up being? A stubborn bastard who didn't listen to anyone else. I highly doubt he himself had strong ties to the elves, so even when they were on the way to help, he wouldn't have known.


<i>the main battle not ending the way it should have (the intelligent trees engulfing the whole orc army WITHOUT any elves help)</i>

- I don't recall the the ents and elves in the same battle in TT, movie or book, unless this is something from the extended version.</div>
 #57169  by SineSwiper
 Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:07 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>
- He saw how the ring warped Frodo and knew that it would do the same or worse to him. He knew the quest to destroy it had to be completed.
He wasn't like this in the book. It totally destroyed his noble character, and just made him like his brother.
- The ents may take a long time making decisions through discussion, but when they saw the devistation first hand, it kind of woke them up. They didn't need time to discuss this time, they were enraged.
They didn't say no in the book, and then changed their mind. That makes them look stupid, not to mention the fact that they didn't know about the trees being chopped down. WTF?
- Who said there were no allies for miles? The King. And what did the King end up being? A stubborn bastard who didn't listen to anyone else. I highly doubt he himself had strong ties to the elves, so even when they were on the way to help, he wouldn't have known.
But it WASN'T IN THE BOOK! And the REAL ending would have been more intelligent and interesting.
- I don't recall the the ents and elves in the same battle in TT, movie or book, unless this is something from the extended version.
It wasn't the ents specifically. They were the trees themselves. The book described it like the forest had swallowed the orc army whole. Ask Seeker; he's read the whole thing.</div>

 #57173  by G-man Joe
 Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:36 am
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>You should watch the Extended Edition. Remember, Peter Jackson has time constraints at the theatres. 4 hour movie = 4 shows per theater. 3.5 hour movie = 5 shows per theatre. 5 shows a day/theatre = more money than 4 shows a day/theatre.</div>
 #57233  by Oracle
 Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:00 pm
<div style='font: bold 10pt ; text-align: left; '>Just because it wasn't in the book doesn't mean it didn't make sense. I didn't argue that those parts were in the book, I'm just saying the theatrical version chose to take a slightly different approach and it worked fine.</div>