The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Just to supercede Zeus's post - Kill Bill 2 was not only fantastic, but it made the first volume about 100 times better as well. A perfect complement to what was essentially a perfect movie to begin with.

  • Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
 #58421  by Gentz
 Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:37 pm
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Just to supercede Zeus's post - Kill Bill 2 was not only fantastic, but it made the first volume about 100 times better as well. A perfect complement to what was essentially a perfect movie to begin with.</div>

 #58425  by Stephen
 Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:13 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I eagerly await the day when Quentin Taratino stops making movies about other movies.</div>

 #58426  by Stephen
 Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:14 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I eagerly await the day when Quentin Tarantino stops making movies about other movies.</div>

 #58427  by Zeus
 Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:51 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Tarantino is just full of himself now and has forgotten what made him good to begin with</div>

 #58429  by Imakeholesinu
 Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:35 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Impact; text-align: left; '>Every "Dog" has it's day.</div>

 #58431  by Gentz
 Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:29 pm
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Every movie is about other movies. I, personally, find Kill Bill's honesty to be refreshing. PARODY is the only danger here, and Tarantino did a fine job sidestepping that I think.</div>

 #58432  by Gentz
 Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:32 pm
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Hardly! If anything, KB2 demonstrated the opposite - that QT is still a master at handling character and dialogue in completely non-mimetic settings.</div>

 #58435  by Shellie
 Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:42 pm
<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>I concur :)</div>
 #58437  by Stephen
 Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:44 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I do not take a moment of Kill Bill (the first volume; I haven't seen the second) seriously, even though I fear Quentin Tarantino wishes me to. This lack of seriousness is crucial to my enjoyment of the film as a running ironic commentary on every cliche and convention employed by martial arts movies, westerns, anime, etc.

As for your breezy dismissal, "Every movie is about other movies," I'm afraid it misses the larger point. There are references, there are homages, and then there is what Quentin Tarantino does, in which nearly every stylistic decision explicitly echoes a specific instance in another film. Some of his references borderline on the ridiculous; why, for example, would you lift the music used in David Cronenberg's early horror film Rabid for a scene in Kill Bill that bears only superficial resemblance to the apropos moment in the earlier film? You may find that enormously clever: I find it self-indulgent and pretentious to the point of cinematic masturbation.

The great movies may be to some extent "about" other movies; one could draw that inference to its extreme conclusion and state that every movie ever made is about another movie, in the sense that all movies use camera angles, mise en scene, and so forth. But great movies are not merely about other movies; they stand on their own. Kill Bill is a fine comedy and possibly great satire (the tone of the film changes so often, it's difficult to tell), but it is by no means a "perfect" film. Not even close.</div>

 #58439  by Ishamael
 Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:59 pm
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>It was an excellent flick. Though once again, I get the feeling that I don't think it was as good as a lot of other people (Ebert and Roeper for example).</div>

 #58440  by Ishamael
 Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:04 pm
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Yeah, there's plenty of "cinematic masturbation" to be seen here. However, as cinematic masterbators go, Quentin is probably the best. And indeed, this is not a perfect film. Only a good one.</div>

 #58442  by Zeus
 Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:55 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Hey, I'm a huge fan of Pulp Fiction, True Romance, Reservoir Dogs, and From Dusk 'til Dawn, Kill Bill just wasn't in that league. And the first part was much better than the second 'cause all it was was an homage to samurai flicks</div>

 #58449  by Stephen
 Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:14 am
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>It's not so much that he was making fun of himself, just all the goofy genre cliches and conventions and whatnot. No, if I had to guess, I think Quentin feels his own work is nothing short of "cool." (Which is by far the most common adjective his legionnaire of fans employ.)</div>

 #58451  by Don
 Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:45 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>What I mean is that if it's meant to be a satire, then by definition you've to make fun of yourself (the point of a satire is that you're as dumb as the thing you're making fun of). So many people think making fun of dumb things makes you cool. It does not.</div>
 #58454  by SineSwiper
 Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:00 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>From Dusk til Dawn was just another dumb vampire movie that didn't display itself as a vampire movie until halfway into it. Reservoir Dogs was decent, but it was nothing more than an experiment into single-point cinematography. Kill Bill Vol 1 was a cliche of samurai anime. At least Vol 2 redeemed some storyline into it, though it had some of the same cliches. (FIVE-POINT OPEN PALM EXPLODING HEART ATTACK!!! How do you say that in Japanese? It might sound cooler.)

Pulp Fiction was good, and True Romance was good, even if TR suffered from some degree of lack of realism. Actually, I do look forward to Hero, despite the lack of realism factor, since Jet Li has NEVER been in a good movie, and he needs to be.</div>

 #58455  by Stephen
 Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:40 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Making fun of yourself is not a requirement to satirize something else.</div>

 #58456  by Stephen
 Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:12 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Making fun of yourself is not a requirement for satirizing something else.</div>

 #58457  by Ishamael
 Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:20 am
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>You need a refresher in lit 101. ;)</div>

 #58461  by Don
 Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:00 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Satire without poking fun to yourself is just idiots thinking they can plot god. You don't get to say 'everyone sucks and therefore I rule' just because it's a satire, which is what people apparently think what satire means.</div>

 #58462  by Don
 Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:01 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Satire without poking fun to yourself is just idiots thinking they can play god.  You don't get to say 'everyone sucks and therefore I rule' just because it's a satire, which is what people apparently think what satire means.</div>

 #58463  by Ishamael
 Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:36 pm
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Kill Bill is a collection of homages, not satire. Quentin loves the films he references in the movies.</div>

 #58464  by Stephen
 Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:40 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>No, not at all. 1984 is satire. Animal Farm is satire. Dr. Strangelove is satire. None of these works poke fun at themselves, and not one operates under the assumption "I'm great, everything else sucks."</div>

 #58465  by Gentz
 Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:03 pm
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>I think you're confusing "satire" with "parody." Though Kill Bill is neither of these things</div>

 #58466  by Zeus
 Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:32 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I don't count Tarantino's distribution deals (Iron Monkey was boring). I was waiting for so long to see the story in Vol 2 (I also thought that's what was lacking in Vol 1), but he just blew it. Plain and simple....</div>
 #58468  by Gentz
 Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:04 am
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Kill Bill isn't a parody. Sure, it's full of self-referentiality and what you refer to as "ironic nods," but it remains a film in its own right (and I think this is made even clearer in Volume 2, so I'd definitely recommend seeing it).

A parody imitates a form/genre in order to poke fun at the codified, recurring elements and themes. I don't think this is QT's aim with Kill Bill. I see it as analogous to a poet experimenting with form. When you have a predominantly narrative poet who decides suddenly to write a sonnet there is a certain degree of irony implicit in such an action. The narrative poet's sonnet refuses to be innocent by its anachronistic nature. There is, therefore, a certain degree of acknowledgement of this fact expected of the poet. Hence, when you see a poet known for free-verse using form the form poems are often going to exhibit some ironic, self-reflexive characteristics. There's nothing wrong with this - if anything, I find it more honest than if the author were to simply expect the audience to accept such anachronisms with quiet nonchalance.

The way I see it, there's far too much depth in the characters and plot of Kill Bill to refer to it simply as a parody. Tarantino is not a kung-fu/samurai/western/action director, but he is adopting these forms to create Kill Bill. He therefore feels obliged to make reference to the irony implicit in such a creation. It isn't really a film "about other films," in this sense, but merely a film in the <I>form</i> of other films - forms which happen to be alien to Tarantino's own body of work and therefore non-innocent by design. If Tarantino had attempted to <I>feign</i> innocence, by saying "Hey, here's a kung-fu film" without any irony it would have been immensely ill-received. We'd demand to know what he was up to. Where does Tarantino get off claiming to be a kung-fu director all of a sudden? It's those ironic nods that keep the film honest, keep its purposes clear...and ironically (!) they actually enable QT to do something <I>novel</i> with the form by getting all the complaints about feigned innocence out of the way right off the bat.

<b>Spoiler Message:<b>
<span style="background: black; color: black;">Kill Bill isn't a parody. Sure, it's full of self-referentiality and what you refer to as "ironic nods," but it remains a film in its own right (and I think this is made even clearer in Volume 2, so I'd definitely recommend seeing it).

A parody imitates a form/genre in order to poke fun at the codified, recurring elements and themes. I don't think this is QT's aim with Kill Bill. I see it as analogous to a poet experimenting with form. When you have a predominantly narrative poet who decides suddenly to write a sonnet there is a certain degree of irony implicit in such an action. The narrative poet's sonnet refuses to be innocent by its anachronistic nature. There is, therefore, a certain degree of acknowledgement of this fact expected of the poet. Hence, when you see a poet known for free-verse using form the form poems are often going to exhibit some ironic, self-reflexive characteristics. There's nothing wrong with this - if anything, I find it more honest than if the author were to simply expect the audience to accept such anachronisms with quiet nonchalance.

The way I see it, there's far too much depth in the characters and plot of Kill Bill to refer to it simply as a parody. Tarantino is not a kung-fu/samurai/western/action director, but he is adopting these forms to create Kill Bill. He therefore feels obliged to make reference to the irony implicit in such a creation. It isn't really a film "about other films," in this sense, but merely a film in the <I>form</i> of other films - forms which happen to be alien to Tarantino's own body of work and therefore non-innocent by design. If Tarantino had attempted to <I>feign</i> innocence, by saying "Hey, here's a kung-fu film" without any irony it would have been immensely ill-received. We'd demand to know what he was up to. Where does Tarantino get off claiming to be a kung-fu director all of a sudden? It's those ironic nods that keep the film honest, keep its purposes clear...and ironically (!) they actually enable QT to do something <I>novel</i> with the form by getting all the complaints about feigned innocence out of the way right off the bat.</span></div>
 #58469  by Gentz
 Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:20 am
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Kill Bill isn't a parody. Sure, it's full of self-referentiality and what you refer to as "ironic nods," but it remains a film in its own right (and I think this is made even clearer in Volume 2, so I'd definitely recommend seeing it).

A parody imitates a form/genre in order to poke fun at the codified, recurring elements and themes. I don't think this is QT's aim with Kill Bill. I see it as analogous to a poet experimenting with form. When you have a predominantly narrative poet who decides suddenly to write a sonnet there is a certain degree of irony implicit in such an action. The narrative poet's sonnet refuses to be innocent by its anachronistic nature. There is, therefore, a certain degree of acknowledgement of this fact expected of the poet. Hence, when you see a poet known for free-verse using form the form poems are often going to exhibit some ironic, self-reflexive characteristics. There's nothing wrong with this - if anything, I find it more honest than if the author were to simply expect the audience to accept such anachronisms with quiet nonchalance.

The way I see it, there's far too much depth in the characters and plot of Kill Bill to refer to it simply as a parody. Tarantino is not a kung-fu/samurai/western/action director, but he is adopting these forms to create Kill Bill. He therefore feels obliged to make reference to the irony implicit in such a creation. It isn't really a film "about other films," in this sense, but merely a film in the <I>form</i> of other films - forms which happen to be alien to Tarantino's own body of work and therefore non-innocent by design. If Tarantino had attempted to <I>feign</i> innocence, by saying "Hey, here's a kung-fu film" without any irony it would have been immensely ill-received. We'd demand to know what he was up to. Where does Tarantino get off claiming to be a kung-fu director all of a sudden? It's those ironic nods that keep the film honest, keep its purposes clear...and ironically (!) they actually enable QT to do something <I>novel</i> with the form by getting all the complaints about feigned innocence out of the way right off the bat.

EDIT (stupid broken spoilers things): Of course, I have approximately zero background in film analysis (hence my analogy to poetry), so that might say something about my opinions here. Anyway, Stephen, you definitely know your films and I do respect your tastes in this regard though I might not always agree with them (I've always enjoyed yours and Lee's reviews at SpoonyInc, btw).</div>

 #58478  by SineSwiper
 Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:41 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>One could also have a satiric parody, which since it is the most common form of satire, it can confuse people.</div>
 #58485  by Stephen
 Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:12 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>What led me to believe that Kill Bill V1 was largely an exercise in mocking irony was QT's usage of his adored cinematic forms. There seemed to me a deliberate exaggeration, an excess that turned the serious into the wickedly humorous. Uma Thurman's bloody romp through the club, with its literal geysers of viscera, seemed, well, cheesy--but intentionally cheesy, as though QT were snickering at the whole affair. The violence in this sequence is excessive to the point of being comedic.

I happen to think the anime sequence, which is stylistically more "anime-like" than most anime I've seen, is the funniest and best sequence in the movie. I couldn't take a moment of it seriously, but if I construed it as a parody of anime's fetishistic obsession with certain themes and inane little details--close-ups of human eyeballs, misogyny, blood, a general predilection for style over substance--then I could enjoy it.

I'm willing to admit that my interpretation of Tarantino's film is wrong; in fact, after reading the comments of those who liked the film, as well as Quentin's own statements, I think there's an excellent chance that my reading is way off the mark. Everyone I've talked to seems to enjoy the film more for its "coolness" than for its comedy.

I will go ahead and say this: If Quentin Tarantino insists that his audience take his film seriously unto itself, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to go ahead and say that his film just isn't very good.</div>