The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Why do you call comic books trash?  It's a form of literature along wiith anything else.

  • Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
 #58795  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>A comic book can be just as good in story as any fiction book out there if a great writer is writing the story. Read Neil Gaimans run of sandman, it was fucking amazing. Actually anything he wrote was gold. Yeah there are a lot of crappy comics but if you get a good writer/illustrater combonation yyou get some amazing work...</div>

 #58796  by Julius Seeker
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Yeah, sure, Marvel is right up there with Milton, Swift, Dryden, Wordsworth, and Blake.</div>

 #58797  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>god you are stupid. that is like comparing the six o clock news with a feature film. 2 different things.</div>
 #58798  by Julius Seeker
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Though a better analogy would be a film (I have no idea why you added "feature" before it) to a heap of compost.

By the scholastic definition of literature, Marvel Comic books at the very most can be considered a sub-genre of childrens literature, and even that definition will probably get laughed at. They are NOT a "form of literature along with anything else", there is no value to them whatsoever. Comic books are trash which breeds people like yourself who make moronic statements such as "god you are stupid." as their main point in an argument.</div>

 #58799  by Gentz
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Or anything by Jim Woodring</div>

 #58800  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>Warren Elliss has a few really good things. So does Alan Moore. I could probably make a huge ass list but I gotta run to class.</div>

 #58801  by Lox
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Seriously. Comics books can be quite intelligent and yet very fun to read. They're as much a form of literature as any novel.</div>

 #58802  by Kupek
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I just finished Neverwhere. Good story, but I liked American Gods more.</div>

 #58803  by Lox
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I just read Kingdom Come with art by Alex Ross. That was good.</div>
 #58804  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>Yeah it was amazing. Along with some other story arcs. One thing I've gotten into is the elseworlds thing that DC is doing. You have some really good stuff. Suck as Superman: Red Sun. which is easily one of the more interesting things I have read in a while. Do yourself a favor and Check it out. really really high quality shit</div>

 #58805  by Lox
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Yeah, I read that when it came out. That was interesting.</div>

 #58806  by Kupek
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>They've been doing Elseworlds for a long time. When done well, yes, very high quality stories. They actually have the freedom to do interesting things.</div>

 #58807  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>Oh I know. I have most of the elseworlds stuff that's come out along with interesting stories like Wonder Woman : Hiketia and a lot of other orgin stand alone comics</div>

 #58808  by Kupek
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Kingdom Come is fucking incredible. Neverwhere and American Gods are novels, by the way. I've never read the Sandman series.</div>

 #58809  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>One of the best things DC ever did</div>

 #58810  by Kupek
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I was an unabashed Marvel devotee, but the two best comic books I've read are Kingdom Come and The Dark Knight Returns.</div>
 #58811  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>First you look at their universes

DC is the ideal universe where heroes are looked up to, loved, and accepted by the normal poeple of the world. It has more of a hidden dark side that all of the other universes and makes it interesting. I used to hate DC because of what I percieved was it's universe but after reading a ton you realize that it has some of the best characters of all the universes in Batman, Hawkman, Sandman, and other fantastic heroes with great stories and backgrounds. Plus when their heroes die they normally stay dead. Although the death list is relatively small.

Marvel is much more of an in between univers. Some heroes are hated and feared. Others are looked at with awe depending on how they came across their powers. It has apocalyptic villains and all but more often it has the more complex villains that you can see how they believe what they believe. There is more of an ambiguous evil rather than Apocalyptic Pure evil.

Wildstorm has an interesting universe in the fact that it is unabashadly violent anxd chaotic. I mean cities are destroyed constantly and both heroes and villains are killed. It is the dark universe of all of them. I enjoy a lot of their work. Some isn't great but a lot of it is spectacular. I loved the early part of the Authority and well I just like a lot of their stuff.

There are many more I could go into but I really don't feel like ranting about comics anymore. Although you should all check out the Age of Apocalypse thing marvel did a while back It was some amazing stuff.</div>

 #58812  by Lox
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Read AoA when it came out also. Very awesome. :) My current comic list is basically: Exiles, Batman, Superman, Batman Legends of the Dark Knight, and Y: The Last Man.</div>

 #58813  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>I love the exiles series. Mainly for blink as she was one of my favorite characters in AoA. That and the blue girl is pretty kick ass....I jsut really like that series so far</div>

 #58814  by SineSwiper
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>They had to get rid of her in Gen X, though. Her power was just too dangerous, and non-PC.</div>

 #58815  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>Yeah that was the phalanx covenent lead in to Gen-X. I loved that crossover. I'm still peeved at some of the more recent deaths. and the Untimate X-Men series also pissed me off</div>

 #58816  by Kupek
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I read the Age of Apocalypse storyline when it came out. That was the best X-Men storyline they did when I read it.</div>

 #58817  by SineSwiper
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Not when you were trying to collect all of the issues. It was the reason I quit reading comics. I just wanted a story where I didn't have to fuck with a 12-comicline spanning crossover.</div>

 #58818  by Kupek
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I read all of those books anyway. Like I said, I was a Marvel devotee.</div>

 #58819  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>If you want I can scan them all and send them to you so you can check them out. Actually that's what got me collecting em again. a torrent on supernova. now I'm buying them left and right</div>
 #58820  by SineSwiper
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>...until the Onslaught storyline. I did collect a good portion of the AoA storyline, and when they finally finished, I thought "Hey, good...now I can get back to enjoying my original comics." Then they started the Onslaught storyline about 4-6 months later (which not only spanned all of the X-Universe, but most of the Marvel Universe) and I just said fuck it.</div>
 #58821  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:35 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>Blink from the age of apocalypse is their leader, Morph is also there, Mimic is in it who is really cool. A female version of sasquach and Nightcrawlers daughter. The group is constantly changing and it's really actually pretty cool. There is another group also that started being led by the Sabertooth from the age of apocalypse who was then replaced by Gambit from the Age of apocalypse. They were a pretty cpool group with a mobster She-Hulk, a serial Killer spider-man and some more really messed up evil guys. Oh</div>
 #58822  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 1:00 pm
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You are amaingly close minded about things. YOu seem to believe that everyone should believe what you do. You are like religion and sometimes more annoying. Like an unpleasant version of the morons that go door to door with their little bibles. Do you know how much work is involved in writing comics. It's not just drawing pictures and coloring them in then filling the bubbles with text. It starts with a fully written story so they can know what to draw. And the stories are entertaining and of good quality even before they flesh it out with pictures. I mean maybe if you tried something you could find something you like. But then again you probably wouldn't because it's childing and your above that with your maturity. I mean you couldn't possibly bring yourself down to that level. Maybe you could try respecting a different opinion for once rather than being an ass hole trying to change everyones mind</div>
 #58823  by Julius Seeker
 Sat May 22, 2004 1:44 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>>You are amaingly close minded about things. YOu seem to believe that everyone should believe what you do. You are like religion and sometimes more annoying. Like an unpleasant version of the morons that go door to door with their little bibles.

This is very poor argument form because I could just turn it around and accuse you of the exact same thing. From my perspective, it is you who is the close minded one who is trying to push your opinion on me and the literary community. You can just not accept that comic books are not a form of literature by the scholastic definition of the word. You also go on with some immature religion bashing which just shows your ignorance towards spiritual and religious faith.

>It's not just drawing pictures and coloring them in then filling the bubbles with text.

Really? In fact that is essentially what the medium is.

As for the rest of your post, the amount of skill and artistic value behind the writing in comics is quite low; as is the entertainment value in them for the high brow audience. The best use for comic books are not in the literary world, they are in the film industry as story boards for possible scenes to be shot in a movie. It is a medium which has very little versatility and allows room for no imagination and interpretation. If you have found an "intellectual" comic book, I certainly would like to see it, because certainly Marvel is certainly not among them. Also, I could care less if you enjoy them or not; I am sure a lot of people enjoy Hustler magazine, does that necessarilly mean it's anything other than trash?</div>
 #58830  by Derithian
 Sat May 22, 2004 3:58 pm
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>You are calling it what it isn't. You see the fact that it uses images and look at it the same way you would a childrens picture book. I look at it and I see a fantastic well fleshed out world with characters and people and problems.

Yes, a comic book is not what YOU consider literature because it doesn't need a lot of words to convey what is in it. You look at is as childish because it is something you don't understand. Hey I got an idea, maybe you should tryi reading a good one then come back and call it childish and unsophisticated.

I give you the fact that a lot of comic books can be somewhat lame and childish. Those are he ones that I avoid. But for every example of trash there are a ton of fantastic ones and even comedic ones. You want something to read for a good laugh you can check out comics like Battle Pope and many other very comedic comics. Something serious? Read Hawkman or Sandman or Batman. You want teen drama pick up a copy of Stars and Stripe, Sentinel, New X-Men Academy, Generation X, and a lot of others.

A comic book can be seen in many different ways but it is still a form of literature. However comparing it to other literature is hard because it is so different from the rest. Just because it tells it's story through pictures and dialogue doesn't detract from the fact that it still tells a story. A story that in my opinion is better suited for comic books and images more often than not.

You can't discount it just because ytou don't like it. Look at poeple like Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett who write both. amazing authors and also have written some of the greatest comic arcs of all time. And yes you are right. A comic is just pictures with words in bubbles and boxes....Or at least that's what you see. But the fact is that they tell a complete story with whole worlds to explore and characters to learn about.

I'm sorry for being a jackass earlier but you had been being a pompus ass to people and I wasn't in a nice mood. So yeah I did take a shot at you But you need to realize the same thing my tramp-whore of a little sister does. And guess what that is, sometimes...you are WRONG. Now go crawl back under your bridge and wait for some billy goats to cross for dinner :p

<b>Spoiler Message:<b>
<span style="background: black; color: black;">You are calling it what it isn't. You see the fact that it uses images and look at it the same way you would a childrens picture book. I look at it and I see a fantastic well fleshed out world with characters and people and problems.

Yes, a comic book is not what YOU consider literature because it doesn't need a lot of words to convey what is in it. You look at is as childish because it is something you don't understand. Hey I got an idea, maybe you should tryi reading a good one then come back and call it childish and unsophisticated.

I give you the fact that a lot of comic books can be somewhat lame and childish. Those are he ones that I avoid. But for every example of trash there are a ton of fantastic ones and even comedic ones. You want something to read for a good laugh you can check out comics like Battle Pope and many other very comedic comics. Something serious? Read Hawkman or Sandman or Batman. You want teen drama pick up a copy of Stars and Stripe, Sentinel, New X-Men Academy, Generation X, and a lot of others.

A comic book can be seen in many different ways but it is still a form of literature. However comparing it to other literature is hard because it is so different from the rest. Just because it tells it's story through pictures and dialogue doesn't detract from the fact that it still tells a story. A story that in my opinion is better suited for comic books and images more often than not.

You can't discount it just because ytou don't like it. Look at poeple like Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett who write both. amazing authors and also have written some of the greatest comic arcs of all time. And yes you are right. A comic is just pictures with words in bubbles and boxes....Or at least that's what you see. But the fact is that they tell a complete story with whole worlds to explore and characters to learn about.

I'm sorry for being a jackass earlier but you had been being a pompus ass to people and I wasn't in a nice mood. So yeah I did take a shot at you But you need to realize the same thing my tramp-whore of a little sister does. And guess what that is, sometimes...you are WRONG. Now go crawl back under your bridge and wait for some billy goats to cross for dinner :p</span></div>
 #58831  by Lox
 Sat May 22, 2004 11:59 pm
<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>When you like something and it's popular, you say: Well, this thing is very popular so that just strengthens my argument for why it's so great.

When you dislike something, you're opinion suddenly changes to: Well, just because a lot of people like this, it doesn't mean it's not trash.

Just something I noticed.</div>

 #58834  by Gentz
 Sun May 23, 2004 10:48 am
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Seeker, trust me, if you actually knew anything about literature in the first place you wouldn't be trying to hawk some bullshit "scholastic definition." None exists.</div>

 #58835  by Gentz
 Sun May 23, 2004 10:54 am
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Not to mention guys like Will Eisner, Art Spiegelman, and Windsor McKay</div>

 #58841  by Kupek
 Sun May 23, 2004 9:01 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>It ain't worth it.</div>

 #58844  by Derithian
 Mon May 24, 2004 4:20 am
<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>I know. I just said enough that he really can't respond with it with his snippy dumb-ass remarks. he wanted examples and I gave em. and got a good shot at him while i was at it</div>