A good article about how lame the "sub over dub" argument is, and my message inside with some thoughts...

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/columns ... id=11">The Dub Track - English Dubs, not Inferior</a>

I've noticed that the dubs are just getting better and better, for the most part. I prefer dubs, and I'd prefer to give them a chance first. For one, good English dubs are always better than their Japanese counterparts. I completely agree with Don Wang's Theory of Japanese Vocal Stereotyping, so trying to watch a sub just because of the "emotional response" that the Japanese actors give them is dumb. Based on that alone, the Japanese voice actors/actresses overact quite a bit. I'm glad that people that actually understand the language agree with me.

Anyway, I think it's worth it to keep track of who does what dub, because it seems to be a great measure of quality. I finally found a place to look these up at <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclo ... php">Anime News Network</a>. Here's some short reviews of the ones I've seen:

<b>New Generation Pictures</b>
<b>Rating:</b> Great
<b>Dubs:</b> Hellsing
Besides, Hellsing, I never seen anything else by these guys. They have done <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclo ... 104">quite a bit of work</a>, but Hellsing is the only one I have to judge it by. However, based on it, the dubbing is absolutely top-notch. The most memorable line (hell, the most memorable character) is one of the Valentine brothers: <i>"And while you're waiting for us to kill you, we highly recommend pissing yourself, followed by a course of praying to your impotent god. Then cowering in the corner and begging, always good. But if you act now, there's still time for an old fashioned suicide! Thank you London! We love you! Good night!"</i>

<b>ZRO Limit/Animaze</b>
<b>Rating:</b> From very good to great
<b>Dubs:</b> Cowboy Bebop, GitS: SAC, Trigun, Lain, Wolf's Rain, Armitage
These guys have been around the block, especially among Adult Swim's picks. A lot of good dubbing here, and really too much to list. This would be another group where I would vote "death before sub".

<b>Bang Zoom!</b>
<b>Rating:</b> subpar, somewhat bad
<b>Dubs:</b> Kenshin, Witch Hunter
After watching an episode of Kenshin, I'd have to say that the voice acting and dialogue were pretty damn bad. I haven't watched Witch Hunter yet, but just from the previews it already sounds bad. The Dub Track also had a <A href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/columns ... 18">review on it</a>.

<b>The Ocean Group</b>
<b>Rating:</b> Iffy, probably bad
<b>Dubs:</b> First dub of DBZ (season 1-2), Gundam Wing
The initial dub of DBZ was so bad that FUNimation got the job afterwards (as well as the re-dubbing effort). However, Gundam Wing, while not great, was still pretty good. (There is still some debate of Peacecraft's villian-like voice, but I don't mind it too much.)

<b>FUNimation</b>
<b>Rating:</b> from good to great
<b>Dubs:</b> Second dub of DBZ (season 2+), Fullmetal Alchemist
The later DBZ voice over was rather nice, with a lot better translation and emotional range than the original Ocean Group dub. So far, their FMA dub has been nothing short of excellent, with completely original and mature characters that really flesh out the awesome artform. It seems that FUNimation has improved over the years, and seemed to have come on par (or better) with ZRO Limit/Animaze.

Overall, in terms of good dubbing, I wouldn't mind some of the clues that fansubs like the put at the top in some of the commercial anime projects. For example, I never caught on to the fact that in Naturo, Gaara's forehead has a symbol, which means "love". The guy is a total unemotional badass, and it's like putting a red heart on his forehead (for a good English->Japanese translation of the symbol). The irony of that detail was completely lost on me until very late in the character's period, when a polite fansub pointed that out at the top, while they were referring how he got that symbol. I thought it should at the very least have been pointed earlier in the story, if not at the very beginning of his entrance, considering that Japanese viewers would have seen the ironic symbol on his head right away. From then on, somebody could point out the symbol's meaning from time to time (if they wish), but overall, you would know what it meant from that first time.

However, that's about the only thing that it really missing in good English dubs. By looking at the damn subtitles all of the time, I'm not getting the visual experience that the Japanese are getting. And since I don't understand the audio, I'm not really getting the same audio experience either. At least with dubs, I'm getting a much closer feel of the story, and I can actually use two of my senses, instead of just one. It really pisses me off that there's almost no place were I can download dubs. Everything is subbed, subbed, subbed, and it's annoying for series that already have complete dubs.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>I looked at the subs I had of Hellsing on ep. 6, and promptly deleted them off my HD when I saw the total garbage disboweling of Jan Valentine's character with the subtitles. (What's wrong? You're not allowed to cuss on subtitles?) And I've heard impressive things of the dub on Excel Saga, so I want to see the series that way.</div>

[Julius Seeker]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>All they do is make their voices louder, there is no real emotion behind it at all. Plus Japanese voice actors often like to use the most annoying and ugly stereotypical voices possible.

Sure some English dubs may be bad, but I have never come across one that is anywhere near as bad as any Japanese dub I have ever heard.</div>

[Zeus]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>1 - taking away the artwork because of the sub

That's just crazy talk. It's all still there , in all of its glory. So what if you have some words on it? Once you're used to it, you can just ignore it after you've read it (I'm fast enough to have a little bit of time before the next sentence) and enjoy the artwork. It's really not that hard at all. This one is a stretch

2 - the nuances being lost on you (nobility and accent of Aeka from Tenchi Muyo)

There's a lot more to nuances than just the words. There are visual cues as well. And when you listen to enough voices, you can start to pick up some of the nuances. The translations and animated body language (and often context) do the rest

3 - you have to know Japanese to know whether or not the voice acting is good

Again, crazy talk. Most anime fans, including myself, love the Japanese voices because of the amount of character and emotion they put into it. This has absolutely zero to do with understanding what is being said, rather it's all about how it's being said. I can't wait to see if the English dub actor of Naruto is even close to that of the Japanese actor. Naruto is all about being extreme (going from elated to pissed to beat up and tired in a heartbeat) and with tons of emotion. That's something that hasn't translated well to English dubbing in the past. Usually they just scream a lot but don't actually put the acting part into it (ie. how its done).


But I will agree with him that dubbing is getting a lot better. It is, there's no doubt about it. My wife forced me to watch Mononoke and Spirited Away on dub (she doesn't like to read it all, she doesn't see the value; amateur :-) and they were much better than expected (although Billy Bob and Gillian Anderson sucked in Mononoke). Disney paid for it, but still, overall, dubbing is much, much better. They've got the pros putting some real effort and emotion now. And I do agree that they're better than live-action dubbing. Anyone here ever tried to listen to the dub of Crouching Tiger? Dear Lord, man.......</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>If you want to see a really horrible dub, download episode 1 of 4Kid's One Piece. I promise you'll agree it's pretty fuckin horrible.</div>

[Buck The Futter]

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>Please let us never speak of this again</div>

[Tessian]

<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>rent them on Netflix. I forget if Excel is on there but Hellsing definitely is, I just finished watching it last month from them</div>

[Tessian]

<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>I watch almost everything dubbed because sometimes I just can't stand Japanese voice actors, plus I've often watched dub while having subs on and the subs were worse. Only thing I wish dubs did was translate text on the screen more often, like in GotS Stand Alone</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Yeah, I noticed that Thorton and Anderson really sucked ass in Mononoke as well. I guess they just weren't used to the whole animation thing.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>I don't doubt that there's bad (and sometimes incredibly horrible) English dubs out there, but these fucking "sub over dub" fanboys that will refuse to see the excellent dubs out there just because of some old stigma that's stuck in their brain.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Can't find Excel. I'd like to see Hellsing on AVI, but I guess I can just rip from the DVDs.</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>That, I agree with.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '><div class=msg-quote>1 - taking away the artwork because of the sub

That's just crazy talk. It's all still there , in all of its glory. So what if you have some words on it? Once you're used to it, you can just ignore it after you've read it (I'm fast enough to have a little bit of time before the next sentence) and enjoy the artwork. It's really not that hard at all. This one is a stretch</div>

Heh, that all depends on how much you can read -and- understand, as well as how fast you can do it. One, it's harder to process words into ideas than speech into ideas. Two, depending on how heavy the material, you may be forced to pause and rewind quite a bit. I dare you to try to go through GitS: Innocence without pausing to re-read the subtitles. It's pretty wordy material, and it sucks that you have to devote only one sense for the experience.

The amount of senses used is a pretty major thing. Sure, you'll hear some sound and music, but really the visual is way too domineering in respect with the audio in a subtitle. With a dub, it's balanced out, and it doesn't feel like you're trying to compete with speed.

<div class=msg-quote>2 - the nuances being lost on you (nobility and accent of Aeka from Tenchi Muyo)

There's a lot more to nuances than just the words. There are visual cues as well. And when you listen to enough voices, you can start to pick up some of the nuances. The translations and animated body language (and often context) do the rest</div>

It's hard to see the visual cues when you're not paying attention to them when they are talking. You aren't really matching up words with the character too well. It's like trying to remember a Japanese name. You have a hard time doing that, than remembering names your familar with. Now, I'm not advocating name changes in anime, but it's a similar concept.

Because you don't understand the language, you're not going to pay attention to the voices as much. Your mind filters it out, and thus, it's harder for you to remember what they sound like and what nuances they are picking up. It's like how your spelling teacher taught you about spelling words: the more senses you use, the easier it is to remember it. You can hear their emotional sounds, but since you don't know what the hell they are talking about, you're much less likely to remember the voice as a whole, because the words aren't tied to the sound of the voice.

<div class=msg-quote>3 - you have to know Japanese to know whether or not the voice acting is good

Again, crazy talk. Most anime fans, including myself, love the Japanese voices because of the amount of character and emotion they put into it. This has absolutely zero to do with understanding what is being said, rather it's all about how it's being said.</div>

Bullshit. Again, all you are hearing is the emotion of the voice. You don't know which words they are carrying the emotion on. You don't know if the inflections or accents are properly being said. You don't know if there are pauses in the right place.

Take a couple of the examples you gave: Gillian and Billy Bob in Monoke. Do you think a Japanese speaking person without any grasp of English could understand why their voice work was bad? It's not like they didn't convey the right amount of emotion at the right time. The problem is a little bit more subtle than that. Hell, you probably don't even know WHY their voice work is bad, but something in your mind says that it is bad. I'm not saying that it isn't bad, but since you actually know the language, something in your brain clicks the wrong way with their voices, and you say "Okay, something wrong with the voice acting." (For the record, I thought Gillian's voice just didn't work, but Billy Bob did fine with his character.)

Or, let's go the opposite way: the example of the Dirty Pair that was given in essay. I'm sure you can watch an episode and think that the voice acting is just fine. You don't know the language, so you don't know if the acting is bad or not. You'll just listen to the emotion on the voice, which you really can't tell is good or bad, especially in overreactive anime. That's not a good judge of what's talented or not. Just download an episode and see if you can tell. Even if you can tell, it's only because I've told you that the acting is bad, or because you're analyzing it more than you would normally.

I can't wait to see if the English dub actor of Naruto is even close to that of the Japanese actor. Naruto is all about being extreme (going from elated to pissed to beat up and tired in a heartbeat) and with tons of emotion. That's something that hasn't translated well to English dubbing in the past. Usually they just scream a lot but don't actually put the acting part into it (ie. how its done).

One, Naruto is a very very common stereotypical anime character. There is a SHITLOAD of extreme characters in anime, especially as the stars. Hell, just look at the stars in Naruto that do that: Sakura, Iao, the Frog Hermit, etc., etc. They all have periods of calm-->extreme screaming.

Besides, it's not something that requires a lot of talent, either. To blame the English voice actors for something that is <b>built into the character itself</b> is absurd. You act like American voice actors have never had to do a screaming emotional part before. Just look at voice acting for American cartoons, even old Warner Brothers stuff. Plenty of screaming there. Look at the main character (dubbed) in Inuyusha or Fullmetal Alchemist.

I think part of your problem is the lacking of faith in the English voice actors to do their job. Lemme show you a few example of great English character dubs:

(Most of these are from <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/columns ... d=14">this article</a> from The Dub Track. There are some other good examples there, and in fact, through out the site.)

<b><a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/ ... g.mp3">Jan Valentine from Hellsing (done by Josh Phillips)</a>:</b> Truly brilliant work here. His dubbing definately makes ep. 4-6 the best part of the series.

<b>Excel from Excel Saga (done by <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/ ... 3">Jessica Calvello</a> and <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/ ... 3">Larissa Wolcott</a>):</b> This character is really hard to do because of the character's constant speed ranting at the top of her voice, which is protraying an unusual anime-dominated trait. Keep in mind that they found TWO voice actresses that pulled it off. (The first actually ended up with a strain on her vocal chords because of the damn character.) If you find that you can't understand exactly what she's saying, that's actually part of the character. Just download an episode, sub or dub, and hear for yourself. Also, there's plenty of good ES clips <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/columns ... 2">here</a>.

<b><a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/ ... mp3">Chief Amano from Miami Guns (done by Charles Dee Rice)</a>:</b> Miami Guns is described as You're Under Arrest meets Excel Saga. This clip made me laugh.

<b><a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/ ... ">Inuyasha from Inuyasha (done by Richard Cox)</a>:</b> Nice example of sarcasm.

There are plenty of other good examples, but it's hard to find the clips from series that I actually know because ALMOST NOBODY CARES ABOUT DUBS! It's a sad state of affairs, and I vow to destroy these attitudes towards dubs.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Can't find Excel. I'd like to see Hellsing on AVI, but I guess I can just rip from the DVDs. Looks like I can find some dual audio of Inuyusha, though.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.anime-hq.com/releases.php">h ... ses.php</a>

Hmmm...looks like AHQ is really good at releasing Dual Audio rips.</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>Yeah just keep in mind they're using the actually distributer's DVDs and such so if you're getting a bad sub jub from a company like 4Kids and YuGiOh, you're getting a censored sub.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>I'm only grabbing the good dubs, anyway.</div>

[Zeus]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I started to read this, but my eyes got tired from staring at the screen for too long. I'll try and respond later</div>

[Zeus]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>There ARE some spectacular dubs out there (original Akira and Spirited Away come to mind) and it IS getting much better, but I just prefer subs</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Anyway, good link, Sine. The idiotic, elitist purism of those who rail against dubs should be obvious to anyone though. Geeks are geeks by way of the fact that they get fired up over stupid things like "remaining absolutely true to the original work" and other such impossible and incoherent positions. Still, the author puts up good, solid arguments (albeit arguments that should be apparent to anyone making the slightest attempt at looking at the situation objectively). His point about "all anime being dubbed" was fairly astute, I thought.

Personally, I don't mind dubs, and, yeah, they're definitely getting better and better as the popularity of anime grows in the US. I watch most of my anime on Adult Swim nowadays anyway, so I'm used to it. Some points I will make though:

<B>On Japanese Voice-Acting:</b> I see a lot of you hating on Japanese voice-actors here, but it seems to me that this is due more to cultural differences than any actual objective quality of their acting. Japanese acting is different from Western acting, it has different origins and different traditions. Acting in Japan places a lot of emphasis on exagerration of voice and movement, and on stiff, deliberate actions. What a lot of you see as "over-acting" from a Western standpoint, is really just typical acting for the Japanese. There actually really isn't that much difference between the acting of anime characters and the acting of live-action characters in most modern Japanese movies (pulpy Japanese movies, at least).

We hard-headed Protestant Americans like undecorated realism, but in Japan it's all about heavy stylization. <I>Everything</i> is stylized in Japan. I'd say this is due to Japan's obsession with strictly observing traditional forms in nearly everything they do. And this applies to the idea of "cookie cutter" voice acting in anime as well. This is simply a case of the actors adjusting their voices not so much to fit the individual role as the traditional <I>form</i> that the role embodies - and to a large extent, I think this is what the Japanese public <I>wants</i> to hear. It's not so much a case of "poor" choices on the part of the actors, but of "Japanese" choices as opposed to Western choices. Though I would also say that it's kind of foolish to complain about actors "all sounding the same" when they're speaking a language you don't understand - because obviously any truth to such a statement is going to be multiplied ten-fold by the fact that you can't pick up on 90% of the nuances in their speech. Of course, they're all going to sound the same to <I>you.</i> Which brings me to the next point...

<B>On not being able to understand the language:</b> Obviously, it's difficult to judge the skill of an actor who is speaking a foreign language (that is, foreign to the viewer). I know I probably wouldn't have noticed the apparently terrible Japanese voice-acting in the Dirty Pair. There is, however, an aspect to voice-acting that is not found so much in live-acting and it's an attribute you can pick up easily regardless of what langauges you speak: character. How proficient an actor is in adding <I>character</i> to his voice determines to a large extent his voice-acting abilities. I can't tell whether or not the woman who does Naruto's voice is a horrible actor or a great one - but what I do know is that she is an amazing voice-actor for the amount of innocent, comedic, child-like character with which she can imbue her voice.

In the same vein, if you had a non-English-speaking Japanese person watch an episode of Ren & Stimpy he'd be able to tell immediately that Billy West and Bill Wray are top-notch voice-actors simply through the character they exude in their voices. This is an integral part of voice-acting that can easily be overlooked by those involved mainly in live-action projects like Gillian Anderson and Billy Bob Thorton. It's the reason for their less-than-stellar performances in Mononoke. They're just not accustomed to emoting 100% with their voices. Though there are those who have a lot of vocal character despite being primarily live-actors like Nathan Lane (though I'd imagine Broadway probably does more to improve your voice character than Hollywood).

The point I'm getting to here is that American anime voice-actors are generally very poor in terms of character - especially when compared to their Japanese counter-parts. I think this is probably just due to the relative popuarlity of anime in the US compared to Japan, but it still holds true. There are no Billy Wests or Hank Azarias in the lineup of American anime voice-actors. There are a few gems, definitely (Richard Cox, David Kaye, and whoever plays Naota in FLCL spring to mind), but in general I'd say this is where Japanese voice-acting truly shines over American voice-acting in anime - at least for the time being.

I'm not saying that you have to like Japanese voice-acting better than American. In the end it's all a matter of preference. I just don't like to see people reacting to one extreme (e.g. "Japanese voice-actors are gods! American voice-actors suck!") by moving to the opposite extreme (e.g. "Japanese voice-actors suck! American voice-actors are amazing!"). At the moment I still personally prefer Japanese voice-acting to American. Japanese voice-acting may not always be outstanding, but the best Japanese <I>seiyuu</i> are superior to the best American <I>seiyuu</i> - and even when the Japanese <I>are</I> acting poorly, at least I can't <I>tell</I> like I can with poor American acting. American voice-acting in anime is getting more and more impressive as time goes on though, and I imagine in a few years there really won't be that much difference left at all.</div>

[Julius Seeker]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The problem with Japanese voice actors is that it is true that they do all sound the same. It is not just because we don't understand them, they use the same dull tones of voice every time; and not only are they dull, but most of the time they are quite ugly. The Japanese female voice actors tend to sound like North American two year old girls who whine a lot at the mall.

I heavily disagree with the argument that the Japanese know anything at all about "emotion" at all; their idea of emotion is speaking louder than before. Japanese voice actors lack the ability to move an audience in any direction whatseoever, something that voice actors, from any other language group that I have seen (Chinese, Indian, Persian, French, Spanish, Swedish, and German), have been able to do. Emotion is something that seems to be universal to the entire world (in terms of acting) except Japan. In Japan, the only real way you can tell if they are angry, scared, happy, or sad is by their facial expressions.

Now I am no anti-Japanese, I like Japanese culture, I have been to Japan a few times in my life. I believe that they have (well, their culture is decaying now to more European and American style rather than their own) one of the best cultures in the world. Still, there is NO WAY that I think that Japanese voice acting can be considered good, it is just a skill that their people as a whole seem to lack; or have not been educated in. However, somehow in the movie The Last Samurai, it was actually quite good; that is a rare exception. Voice acting is one of the few areas that I think the Japanese should actually adopt from almost any other culture.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>To me, that seems to stunt their voice talents. Actors are praised for their dynamics. That includes voice actors. There are plenty of different voices to try out, or combinations of existing accents. Honestly, I think the Americans do a better job of picking vocals that match the original while making small changes that make a big difference in the presentation. I've pointed out plenty of good examples in my reply to Zeus.

I seem to agree with Seeker about the Japanese and their emotions. They don't know how to protray them. Their stiff personalities molded by their strict culture has destroyed all sense of moderation within their society. It's either strict work ethics or extremism. This seems to extend far beyond just anime. Anime is just a cultural extension of their own existance, their own thoughts and feelings. Japanese are stressed to the point of bursting and they release with a explosion of extremism. Yes, it's part of their culture, but it's just as unhealthy as our obsession with Purtainism.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Weird...nothing really popped out with me on the Akira dub. (Hmmm...that was a ZRO Limit/Animaze job, too. Maybe I'll check it out again.)</div>

[Julius Seeker]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>By Indian I mean various languages from India/Pakistan. We have a few channels dedicated to that, and I know it's ignorant, but we watch them for a cheap laugh =)</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>He's not saying you have to like it, he's just saying that you don't have the background to understand the art form.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>To start, I'm in the Zeus/Gentz camp here, in that I generally prefer subtitles, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, there have been several cases (Escaflowne, Nadesico, Kenshin) where I've seen a series in fansub form first, and after spending 13 or so hours with those characters, switching around and hearing completely different voices come out of them is like having a cheese grater being rubbed across your brain. And to be fair, it works in the opposite direction as well - I can't watch Ranma 1/2 subtitled because I first saw it dubbed, and the English voices are so familiar to me I couldn't do it. It's not so bad with movies - I've seen most of Miyazaki's stuff subbed and dubbed and it hasn't bothered me, as well as Akira - but speaking of Akira, that brings me to my next point.

As some of you may know, when Akira was made, the voices were recorded first and then the animation of the characters' mouths was synced to the Japanese audio track - and thus, it looks freaking awesome. My point here is is that for the most part, anime is produced in Japanese, and thus the timing, sound mixing, etc., of most anime is at its optimum with a Japanese audio track. I'm not motivated by some nebulous bullshit like needing to see it in its "original form," it's all about technical aesthetics. A good example of what I'm talking about was when I was playing Metal Gear Solid 3 last night. One of the characters was brought some bad and suprising news, and yelled "What!?" when I could totally tell by looking at him that he had originally growled "Nannnni!?" For some reason, this problem seems to bother me more often when watching anime - there are just subtle differences in the sound mixing and timing that just seem...off. The article's point that all anime is dubbed still holds, but the issue for me is original design versus adaptation.

Thirdly, I read really fucking fast. I have no problem whatsoever reading the subtitles and still looking at whatever's going on in the background.

Fourthly, let's be honest for a second here...a lot of what anime characters have to say, once translated into English, is pretty freaking cheesy. I mean, which do you think would sound cooler, someone yelling "Shoooooooryu-ken!" or someone yelling "Dragon PUNCH!"? As another example, when I saw Mononoke in English for the first time, I giggled at how stupid Ashitaka sounded when he yelled "We give you back your head!", and didn't bat an eye when the same exact words flashed across the bottom of my screen as a subtitle when I watched the DVD in Japanese. I don't know why exactly, but Japanese just <i>sounds</i> better when used in battle cries and the like, and sometimes even when the Japanese voice actors speak "katakana", like how I always loved when the Coach in GunBuster talked about the "Bustaa Machine." Maybe it's because I don't fully understand everything that's being said, but I'm better able to ignore the cheesiness in Japanese, or at least not let it bother me as much.

Fifthly, and this just occurred to me, I watch motion pictures in English all the damn time. When you have a chance to watch something in a foreign language, what's wrong with a little variety?

Sixthly, I may not be able to pick out a bad Japanese voice acting job when I hear one, but I can sure pick out a good one. Take, for example, Spike (Cowboy Bebop, obviously) and Sanosuke (Kenshin). Spike's seiyuu does a fantastic job of injecting ennui, playfulness, and world-weariness into his voice, while Sanosuke's voice is a wonderful mix of gruffness and brashness that can't hide the genuine affection he feels for his friends. I was never able to stomach the Kenshin dub long enough to hear Sano, but I've heard a little bit of the Bebop dub and the job the English voice actor does with Spike <i>PALES</i> in comparison. It's not even close. And since I can detect a bad English acting job much easier than I can a Japanese voice acting job, I prefer to go with subtitles for the most part.

There ya go. Just some more crap to ponder.

Regards,
<i>-57</i></div>

[Julius Seeker]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>What is the artistic merit of a people who refuse to voice act in any other style except spondaic?</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Man, blowing off the English Cowboy Bebop dub? That's harsh. Kenshin's dub is a Boom Bang screw-up, though I hear it suffers from dubbing lag. (In other words, it gets better as the voice actors get used to their roles.)</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>Dude you had me until you dissed Spike's voice actor for Bebop, dude was perfect.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Admittedly, I only heard a few words from Spike in English and it was already after I'd seen the entire series in Japanese, so I was most likely suffering from cheese grater on the brain more than anything else. I'll stand corrected, but I'll still never watch Bebop dubbed. =)</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>And then you said you liked Ranma's dub. Ranma's dub is horrible! OMG. I mean maybe it's because Ranma's anime sucks in comparison to the manga, but damn dude.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I never specifically said I liked Ranma's dub, I said it was the audio track that I was familar with. Cheese grater on the brain again.</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>One of the appeals of the Japanese language (and you of all people here should know this) is that it's got an extremely minimalist structure. The lack of accented syllables and the syllbary of quick, sharp sounds means that the language has to convey emotion much more subtlely than, say, a Romance language that can make use of meter and more fluid, musical sounds. This subtlety is something to be <I>appreciated</i> about the language, though. It's silly to judge the accomplishments of Japanese acting by a set of standards that ignores the unique aesthetic structure of the Japanese language (not to mention the unique acting traditions of the nation).

As I mentioned before, personal preference is one thing, but saying that the Japanese are somehow <I>inherently</i> inferior in their acting ability is just plain foolishness. You're simply applying your set of expections as to what acting "should be like" to a group of people with a different set of expectations.</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Dude, the entire Japanese *language* is spondaic.</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Secondly (in classic Sineswiper fashion), you have taken a very small bit of data on the sound of Japanese voice-acting and somehow managed to extrapolate it into a critical assessment of the personalities of all Japanese people. Don't you realize how ridiculous it is to accuse an entire culture of being "stiff" and unable to portray emotions properly? Let alone basing such a statement solely on their voice-acting and a few ignorant (and utterly misinformed) stereotypes. Japanese people's lives are just as rich with emotion as anyone else's and their personalities are just as deep and complex as your own. The Japanese language, as I explained in my reply to Seeker, portrays emotion more subtlely (and in different ways, like through verb conjugations) because it lacks certain features like syllabic meter. This doesn't make the Japanese "poor" actors, it just means that Japanese acting employs different methods. These methods might not necessarily appeal to you, but that doesn't make them a symptom of some pathological personality deficit in the Japanese people.</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>What's wrong with Ranma's dub? It's almost identical to Inu Yasha's.</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>Viz throws alot of American cultural referances in place of the dialog, it's mistranslated, and again I may be judging it a bit hard because the anime was fine to me UNTIL I read the manga, then I noticed how badly it translated into anime from it's manga form.</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Ha. Maybe. I did watch it a very long time ago. I thought you were talking about the voices themselves though.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>I was drawing culture generalizations and comparing them with our own cultural generalizations. I don't think it's unfair to say that we suffer from a Puritan-like pathology, just like they suffer from the exact opposite.</div>

[Gentz]

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>You're drawing a cultural generalization about the Japanese based on a few unfounded assertions about Japanese *voice-acting* and a few common stereotypes about the Japanese being a bunch of stressed-out worker-bees (which are patently untrue, btw - Americans work more than the Japanese)</div>

[Julius Seeker]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>There is no real expression of emotion in their voices. They use the same tones for anger, happy, excited, scared, and many other emotions. They express emotion by facial expressions, not by voice. Emotion in voice acting is certainly not a part of Japanese culture, the express emotion on a much simpler level, loud means lots of emotion, quiet means little emotion, and it doesn't matter which emotion they are expressing, it is very one dimensional. The fact that the format, the language, is so simplistic does not help; it does not have to be spoken Spondaicly, it is just how it developed within their culture. Yet in some movies, like the Last Samurai where a much better director is used to demonstrate good voice acting, the Japanese actually can shine through.

Also, it is not just my personal preference, but if you look at any other foreign movies, they are all similar, even when outside of the indo-European language family. Who is the authority when it comes to good voice acting? Not the Japanese, it is something very new to their culture, it is Western Civilization where it has existed for thousands of years.</div>