Interesting perspective on the Iraq situation...

[Flip]

My wife's mother works with a doctor who is middle eastern and he tried to explain to her why the US involvement is futile...

Appearently, as a middle eastern man, if someone is your enemy, not only are they your enemy for life, but you also simply despise everything associated with them. He says that even if your enemy built a bridge in your country that is the only way to get to town/your home/your job, whatever; it is the best bridge ever and makes your life easier, a middle eastern man would rather bomb that bridge since it was made by his enemy than use it. The concept of hate and grudges is so far from ours that obviously it is impossible for us to comprehend since we are still in Iraq.

His answer is, of course, that the US has to leave and let that part of the world sort it out for themselves.

[Zeus]

It is confirmed: everyone ignores everything I say. I shall speak no more :-)

[Flip]

I dont remember you describing it quite so frank, but if you did, then sorry.

[Nev]

Wait, what's going on?

I understand the Islamic Arabic concept of vengeance pretty well, but quite honestly I can't imagine all Arabs are that stupid.

[Julius Seeker]

Yeah, I think Zeus has been mentioning this for the last 4 years =P

[Zeus]

Wait, what's going on?

I understand the Islamic Arabic concept of vengeance pretty well, but quite honestly I can't imagine all Arabs are that stupid.

It has nothing to do with stupidity. This is why Americans could never understand exactly what the Vietnemese were thinking during the war (I'll let you figure it out). The Americans thought they were freeing the Vietnemese from the Chinese communism, the Vietnemse thought they were in a civil war to protect their very culture and would have fought right down to the last man to protect it (see Fog of War to hear it from the horses mouth if you don't believe me). No culture likes to be taken over and told what they are to do, how they are to think, how they are to live. But this is exactly what's going on over there and has been for over 60 years (since WW2). The Americans (and the British and French to a degree) have gone into third world countries and thought they could just rule and tell them what to do. How else do you think such an unequaled hatred for the Americans has popped up in nearly every country in the world? Why do you think some of the Islamics became extremists? Their kind has been ostracized from the world and treated like garbage for hundreds of years.

It's not just because you're the strongest, it's how you act (like you're better and can do what you want without regard to the people there). This is what has led to the hatred Flip was talking about.

Unfortunately, most people in this continent will never know any better because the media won't report on it and they will never see it for themselves. But make no mistake about it, the level of hatred Flip talked about is very real and it's not just the Muslims (most of the Islamic world hates the Americans, and they consist of a lot more than Arabs)

[Flip]

Well, the way the doc told it, it wasnt really about hatred toward Americans in particular, but about how Middle Eastern men treat people they consider their enemies in general, whoever that may be.

Obviously, as a culture, we understand what an enemy is, but i think Euopeons and Americans alike can wake up one day, forgive and forget, and even ally with our enemy from yesterday. People from that side of the world take their enemies to their graves, hence Isreal and Palestine and many of the other rediculous wars going on over there. This is what i failed to understand until recently. I know Zeus has been talking about American hatred over there for years, but put in this light (as a character trait) finally made it hit home to me.

What can you do? If Agent is right and we will eventually run into an oil crisis, i dont think we are going anywhere in the near future.

[ManaMan]

I believe that containment is the best policy for the middle east. We need to contain them like we did the Communist nations during the cold war. Their systems will collapse on their own due to corruption, etc.

[Julius Seeker]

Manaman, what history course did you take in regards to the USSR? I only had one lecture on the fall of the USSR, but it is quite clear that it didn't colapse because of corruption, it wasn't the Roman Empire. It colapsed because of a low amount of resources and an attempt to expand and acquire more resources by westernizing. When the USSR was set up the countries were relatively poorly situated in regards to the wealthy nations of the world (the Western World). During World War II they took incredible losses, and actually managed to hold on as long as they did through the efficiency of their system. However, their resources were very limited in comparisson to the Western World, and that was never not the case at any point in history. During the Gorbachev reign, he decided to undertake heavy restructuring of the union and institute the policy of Glasnost in order to open up relations with the wealthy western world, this was essentially something that can be associated with openess, freedom, etc... Unfortunately this weakened his position greatly to the point where officers within the regime saw how little power Gorbachev actually had, and it was for this reason that Gorbachev gave up his powers, turning it over to Boris Yeltson, and the Soviet Union dispanded. Now, somehow I doubt that you actually believe that freedoms = corrption.


Anyways, read some of Sine's posts on US government and their relation to the businessworld to see where real corruption lies.

[Zeus]

I believe that containment is the best policy for the middle east. We need to contain them like we did the Communist nations during the cold war. Their systems will collapse on their own due to corruption, etc.

Like China?

[Julius Seeker]

Off topic but: I love China, such a beautiful country. If I didn't have so much tied up here, I would consider moving there; my cousin has lived there for the past three years. Another friend of mine has been living there for about a year, was originally going to live in Melbourne Australia, but decided to move to China (also plays Utopia from there).


EDIT:

Speaking of Gorbechev, here is an article on the old corrupt tyrant now =P

(Found it when looking up US casualties in the war which now number nearly 15,000).

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/stor ... wire_story

[SineSwiper]

It is, of course, a combination of the corrupt and hypocritical behavior of the US/Britian, and the dangerous centuries-long hatred towards anything involving the enemy. I've already ranted about the former plenty, so I'll give you my views of the latter.

There are healthy forms of anger towards oppression, injustice, etc., and then there is the Middle-East's form of it. Frankly, it's a de-evolved and barbaric point of view that will eventually be phased out by our world's hyperspeed form of Darwinism, especially with such traits that promote confrontation with ancient enemies. That level of hatred is what has taken so long for a possible peace between Israel and Palistein. It took Arafat to finally hurry up and die in order to even begin the talks.

Such behaviors are unproductive in a civilized society, even against cruelities of cruelities. We do not hold a grudge against Germany for Hitler and the hatred among his followers, including the millions of card-carrying Nazi Party members. We do not hold a grudge against Southerns for starting a civil war that caused the highest death toll of countrymen the US has ever known, though we wish some of them didn't act so goddamn stupid sometimes.

Some of our traits, including the forgetfulness of our own hypocracies, are certainly not ones to be proud of, but that part of the world should learn to shed its POV, lest it be wiped off of the face of the map forever by its own arrogance. We'll know in nine years anyway.

[Julius Seeker]

Speaking of revenge:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... ory=643659

Israeli soldiers in reference to the shooting deaths of Palestinians "We killed them in revenge"

[kali o.]

"If it's not in my backyard, I don't care".

That explains my apathy, your apathy and the overflowing hatred that breeds in any war torn region.

Yes kids, it is all really that simple.

Now the answer...leave them to themselves, isolate, diplomacy, westernize or nuke'em....thats complicated. Lemme know if you figure it all out.

[Ishamael]

"If it's not in my backyard, I don't care".

That explains my apathy, your apathy and the overflowing hatred that breeds in any war torn region.

Yes kids, it is all really that simple.

Now the answer...leave them to themselves, isolate, diplomacy, westernize or nuke'em....thats complicated. Lemme know if you figure it all out.

You left off "insert Ishamael as World Overlord". I'd use a form of diplomacy I like to refer to as "Death Star and Alderaan". K.I.S.S., I say.

[Julius Seeker]

"If it's not in my backyard, I don't care".

That explains my apathy, your apathy and the overflowing hatred that breeds in any war torn region.

Yes kids, it is all really that simple.

Now the answer...leave them to themselves, isolate, diplomacy, westernize or nuke'em....thats complicated. Lemme know if you figure it all out.

You left off "insert Ishamael as World Overlord". I'd use a form of diplomacy I like to refer to as "Death Star and Alderaan". K.I.S.S., I say.

Perhaps we should look to the bible for answers before we make Ishamael Overlord:

Genesis 6:5 - The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Anyways, to the point, God decided it was necessary to flood the earth to purge the evil men from it. So I propose we just do that instead, flood the earth. We will give all good people word ahead of time, so they can all movie to the Rockies, Switzerland, Nepal; anywhere with mountains. Anyways, everyone knows the best way to flood the earth is to melt the polar ice caps; it's common sense!

In order to melt the ice caps we will have to cause massive global warming. The best way to cause global warming in my opinion would be to burn oil. By doing that, you can enforce Gods will upon the wicked people of this planet. Well, I think you all know where this is leading. I have another thread available on the best place to buy oil located here:

viewtopic.php?t=9205


So, from here it is a matter of opinion. You could follow my plan and work the will of God. Or you can make Ishamael Overlord so he can do this to our planet:

[Zeus]

"If it's not in my backyard, I don't care".

That explains my apathy, your apathy and the overflowing hatred that breeds in any war torn region.

Yes kids, it is all really that simple.

Now the answer...leave them to themselves, isolate, diplomacy, westernize or nuke'em....thats complicated. Lemme know if you figure it all out.

If the US was actually independant and cared about fixing the problem, it would have been over years ago, long before it got to his point. Plain and simple