Take Two/Rockstar in hot water

[Nev]

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Hillary_Cli ... ut_enquiry

I dunno why you would leave something like that in your code. These guys have got to have heard of ROM hackers...not that I think there's anything wrong with videogame sex scenes, but given public opinion, I really think they might have seen this coming.

[Don]

It is a big deal because major retailers don't carry games with an AO label as opposed to M. Sure people can make AO class games. You just won't be selling very many of them because no major store like Walmart or Best Buy will carry them.

[Agent 57]

Just to add to what you said, Don...

I just checked the ESRB website, and only 18 games came up with a rating of AO - all of them were for PC ("The Guy Game" is even only rated M). The only one that was even remotely related to consoles in any way was the uncensored version of the new Leisure Suit Larry game.

Actually, the fact that there is an uncensored PC version of a console game got me thinking...along those same lines, it could be possible that Rockstar left the hardcore sex code in SA because of a planned uncensored PC version. Maybe if somebody ROM hacked LSL, they'd be able to produce an uncensored version of that too.

[Nev]

I have no doubt that you could, unless the designers went out of their way to obfuscate the executable and make it really hard on ROM hackers. Dunno why you'd want to though. LSL was horrid. Great graphics, great animation, great sound, and writing that would make a failed sketch comedy writer go "Ya know, that's really just not that funny." Though I did actually beat it and even unlock the "everybody naked" Easter Egg...

[Kupek]

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Hillary_Cli ... ut_enquiry

I dunno why you would leave something like that in your code. These guys have got to have heard of ROM hackers...not that I think there's anything wrong with videogame sex scenes, but given public opinion, I really think they might have seen this coming.

From a software engineering standpoint, just disabling the feature is better than removing the code entirely. (And by "disable" I mean not even make it known that such a featur exists, not just "Whoops, you can't do that!") It's much easier to maintain the code that way.

The game was clearly rated Mature. If this mod had been part of the release, then it would have warranted Adults Only. I don't think the difference is worth caring about.

[Nev]

Ooooh yes, it very much is. Like Don said, Wal-Mart (and probably other retailers) won't stock an AO game...

EDIT: I understand the software engineering principles at work here, but it doesn't seem to have worked out too well for them. If we manage to get our game published, I do not plan on taking any chances (and this is something I'd planned about before reading this news) - even some of the funnier names in my code like "FunkyFunc" and a parameter called "ThisBetterBeNULLOrImaKillYou" are going to get renamed before publishing, assuming said publishing happens.

For reference, the "BetterBeNULL" parameter above is due to a compiler thing that treats NULL as an integer in an overloaded class, and I wanted to be able to use "a = NULL"...there's a reason for it, and I don't know if it's a perfect way to do it, but I'm not willing to call it bad engineering out of hand.

Anyway, my only point was, while the politicos are probably being alarmist (I haven't seen the sex scenes) as usual, Rockstar could've avoided it if they'd just taken the damn thing out altogether before shipping it.

[Agent 57]

I've been doing some more reading on this subject from other news sources, and I have a variety of reactions to the various...thingies surrounding this case.

-Like usual, I'm pissed at the rhetoric that politicians and the media use when writing stories about violent games, such as this:

Research has, for years, confirmed a link between exposure to violent video games and aggressive behavior in children. A new study by researchers at Indiana University School of Medicine show that playing violent video games triggers "unusual brain activity" among aggressive adolescents with disruptive behavior disorders, said Dr. John Walsh, founder and director of the National Institute on Media and the Family.

Somebody casually reading that passage will immediately get the idea that all violent video games are bad for kids, when in essence the paragraph says nothing to that effect whatsoever. Playing certain games triggers "unusual brain activity"? What the fuck does that mean? And it certainly doesn't lend much credence to the study's integrity when it's revealed that the kids they studied in the first place were "aggressive adolescents with disruptive behavior disorders"! And yet people get suckered in with this shit! Arrrrrrrrrrgh!

-I'm also pissed that the tone of all these articles & rhetoric ends up being the denouncement of video games as this big evil thing to protect our children from - when in essence, all that Hilary wants to do is fine retailers who sell M-rated and above games to minors and keep said games out of reach of kids, behind the counter and locked down and only sold with ID.

Which, to anyone with an ounce of sense, is blindingly obvious <i>that they should have been doing this shit all along</i> and only underscores the fact that most politicians don't know a damn thing about games in the first place.

*pant* *pant*

[Nev]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2005-06-22

The second panel refers quite humorously to what you were just talking about.

[SineSwiper]

Research has, for years, confirmed a link between exposure to violent video games and aggressive behavior in children. A new study by researchers at Indiana University School of Medicine show that playing violent video games triggers "unusual brain activity" among aggressive adolescents with disruptive behavior disorders, said Dr. John Walsh, founder and director of the National Institute on Media and the Family.

Somebody casually reading that passage will immediately get the idea that all violent video games are bad for kids, when in essence the paragraph says nothing to that effect whatsoever. Playing certain games triggers "unusual brain activity"? What the fuck does that mean? And it certainly doesn't lend much credence to the study's integrity when it's revealed that the kids they studied in the first place were "aggressive adolescents with disruptive behavior disorders"! And yet people get suckered in with this shit! Arrrrrrrrrrgh!

Ahhh, yes. Total junk science in research projects from bias researchers. "National Institute on Media and the Family", huh? Seems to be similar to the research that "proves" that "E causes brain damage" and "a person on marijuana will have brainwaves eerily similar to a comatose person".

[SineSwiper]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2005-06-22

The second panel refers quite humorously to what you were just talking about.

Yeah, PA's take on the whole subject is funny:

If they really want to come across as chivalrous defenders of virtue, they need to go after Wonder Showzen.

Have you ever seen this show? It's on your "MTV2." I don't really get offended, you should see some of the videos I have on my desktop for ready access, but if I was the sort of person who got offended for show and tried to get famous for it Wonder Showzen would be the tool I'd use to finally dismantle that pesky First Amendment. If Charles Schumer or some other professional scold were to bring this program to wider public attention, it wouldn't be like the Videogame Controversy, where they get up and yell, and then someone reminds them we live in The United States Of America, and everybody sits down with their hands neatly folded until the sequel. No. If the populace at large saw Wonder Showzen, there would be no public hearings, no televised debate, and certainly no warning. You would just wake up one morning and your television would be gone.

[Imakeholesinu]

This is why I won't vote Democrat next election. It's either her or Barak Obama. I'll take John McCain please.

[Nev]

I have a hard time deciding whether to really start supporting the Greens next election or not, but since I'm still sort of a Democrat (for now) I would just like to say that there are a lot of us that don't like Hillary either. She seems to be motivated by self-interest a very good lot of the time. I met a lawyer at a temp job once who had known her as a young lawyer, and she said that her impression was that she was a political power-grabber even then.

I'd take her over the religious right or the current administration, but I wish someone like Barbara Boxer (Senator, D-Calif.) would run instead - she has proven as a Senator to be proactive in speaking out for human rights and environmentalism, as well as consistently taking initiative on a lot of things even though she enjoys high electoral margins and could probably win re-election even if she rested on her laurels some. She's being proactive on a new anti-spam bill, and in an age where a lot of judges at least seem to be ten years behind the times when it comes to computing legislation, that won big points with me even though it's a fairly minor issue in the grand scheme of things.

However, I would take McCain over Hillary as well, in a second. He has an incredible strength, conviction, and a willingness to fight and endure hardship for what he believes in. The stories about his time in the Viet Cong P.O.W. camps that I've read have been awe-inspiring and have made me really believe he is a man who believes in responsibility, service, and personal integrity.

Truth be told, if Boxer somehow were to run and it came down to her against McCain, I don't know who I'd pick in that case, but I would be happy, supportive, and grateful to be choosing between people of their caliber instead of what we've been getting. God, would that ever make my four years.

[Julius Seeker]

This is why I won't vote Democrat next election. It's either her or Barak Obama. I'll take John McCain please.

You're going to vote based on someones opinion of a videogame? Why not based on what they do to people, what they do to the economy, what they do to the image of the country?

[SineSwiper]

Well, those kind of views imply a few things, including stupidity, being the first to jump on censorship, and a herd mentality. I've hated Hillary ever since she's been senator, and probably before then too.

[Julius Seeker]

Well, she's a bitch. She's also acting like a Republican in this case. Either way, I do think that the censoreship of people fucking in a videogame that isn't AO, and the censoreship of political views are two totally different things.

[Imakeholesinu]

I vote based on what is important to me, don't you vote for what is important to you?

Seriously, she's blowing up a minor issue. The game is rated M for a reason. Just because someone can alter the code to unlock certain features like that doesn't mean you've got to go to extra lengths to make sure they don't do it again. Last time I remembered it was a free country. Maybe all the liberals should stop cracking down on the people making the games and start cracking down on the people who let their children walk into a store and buy an M rated game by themselves? Or are the retailers supposed to babysit their kids for them too? seriously, buisness are buisnesses, and they have better things to do then to babysit their neglected youth.

[Julius Seeker]

I vote based on what is important to me, don't you vote for what is important to you?

Seriously, she's blowing up a minor issue. The game is rated M for a reason. Just because someone can alter the code to unlock certain features like that doesn't mean you've got to go to extra lengths to make sure they don't do it again. Last time I remembered it was a free country. Maybe all the liberals should stop cracking down on the people making the games and start cracking down on the people who let their children walk into a store and buy an M rated game by themselves? Or are the retailers supposed to babysit their kids for them too? seriously, buisness are buisnesses, and they have better things to do then to babysit their neglected youth.

Alright, well since you are voting because one person in a specific party does not like some some aspect in a videogame, which party are you going to vote for?

[Kupek]

I vote based on what is important to me, don't you vote for what is important to you?

Certainly, and there are many things more important to me than videogames.

[SineSwiper]

Certainly, and there are many things more important to me than videogames.

Yes, but it reflects on the behavior of the senator, as well as what she might due if other censorship issues come about, like censoring the Internet from kiddies, censoring TV from kiddies, blaming MTV on kiddie's behavior, blaming Doom on Columbine, etc., etc., etc.

[Kupek]

Which I assume will happen about equally from candidates from both parties, because such stances are low-risk-high-gain. On issues like this, politicians either say "<i>X</i> is an endemic problem" or say nothing. But in the end, little ever comes of it. This is headline-grabbing stuff, not actual policy.

In 2008, we're going to get basically two options, and stuff like this will not dominate the differences between them.

[Nev]

I agree that this is a pretty minor issue. I wonder if the fact that you almost need a CS degree to unlock this "secret" was something Hillary and these right-wing family groups were aware of before they started the furor. I still think Rockstar was a bit dumb to leave it in the production code, however, even if it was completely disabled by all conventional means.

[Nev]

Whoops! Apparently not. One needed a CS degree to unlock the secret in the first place, but that person/persons seems to have made it easy for everyone else to get to the content easily. I wonder if anyone even brought up the idea of trying to track down those guys and prosecute them.

[Kupek]

I wonder if anyone even brought up the idea of trying to track down those guys and prosecute them.

For what?

[Nev]

Uh. I'll think of something, I swear...

Good point, though.

[SineSwiper]

Penny Arcade has an interesting take on this situation

Frankly, I think Rock Star should put out their next game as a AO title, just to force places like Wal-Mart to reconsider putting them on their market again. Once they go "Hmmm...we're losing shitloads of money on the hottest selling game in America because of our shitty policies.", I'm sure they'll change their mind.

Otherwise, if only very few titles become AO, nobody will sell AO titles, and thus, nobody will want to make games that become AO, and then the M rating becomes a catch-all as they bend the boundaries between M and AO, thus creating inconstitancies and making the ERSB a hypocritical organization. This is exactly the story with MPAA right now, and the R and NC17 ratings.

[Nev]

It does suck that the AO and NC-17 ratings are usually viewed as the kiss of death.

[SineSwiper]

I do agree with PA's "what the fuck is the difference between the two" argument. Gee, one is for 17-year-olds and another is for 18-year-olds?

[SineSwiper]

More developments on this: ESRB officially changes the rating

[Tortolia]

Frankly, I think Rock Star should put out their next game as a AO title, just to force places like Wal-Mart to reconsider putting them on their market again. Once they go "Hmmm...we're losing shitloads of money on the hottest selling game in America because of our shitty policies.", I'm sure they'll change their mind.

Wouldn't happen.

The game publishers/companies need Wal-Mart a lot more than Wal-Mart needs them.

[SineSwiper]

Then, the ESRB will become the MPAA, and we'll be in a sorry state of affairs, where the creativity of the video games would be restricted by the rating.

[Nev]

"Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Target Corp. and Best Buy Co. said they would immediately pull all copies from their store shelves nationwide." Ho boy. I wonder what it's like over at Rockstar right now.

[Julius Seeker]

Well, in M rated games, things aren't quite as evil. M rated games have things like blowing peoples fucking heads off; coming up behind women and slitting their throats; running people over; words like fuck, cunt, bitch, shit, and faggot;

But Adult only games have the horrible horrible horrible thing called nudity in them. Which is WAAAY fucking worse than someone getting split in half with a grenade showering everything around in a crimson blood and gore shower. You can run the bitch down, shoot her in the head, slit her throat, cut her torso open with a chainsaw, but you can't see her titties, that would be wrong.

Either way, the majority people who seem to care a great deal about any of this type of stuff in games are like 8-15 years old anyways. Doom isn't the reason why those columbine shooters went nuts; they were already nuts, they were over the age of 15 and called fucking Doom the best game ever.

/rant over

[Eric]

Sooooo is there any chance I can get my hands on the uncut AO version? ;p

[Zeus]

Well, she's a bitch. She's also acting like a Republican in this case. Either way, I do think that the censoreship of people fucking in a videogame that isn't AO, and the censoreship of political views are two totally different things.

Actually, censorship is a Liberal\Democrat thing. It goes with the whole "more government regulation is better" idea

[Zeus]

Sooooo is there any chance I can get my hands on the uncut AO version? ;p

You mean other than the 5+ million copies floating around? ;-)

[Nev]

Well, she's a bitch. She's also acting like a Republican in this case. Either way, I do think that the censoreship of people fucking in a videogame that isn't AO, and the censoreship of political views are two totally different things.

Actually, censorship is a Liberal\Democrat thing. It goes with the whole "more government regulation is better" idea

Not in my experience. Don't take Tipper Gore as representative of Democrats as a whole. I think there are proponents and opponents in both parties, generally.

Also, Seek: Yes. Agreed. I had this argument with my mother the other day...we were talking about the Boobgate Superbowl thing. She was saying that it was right that the FCC nailed them to the wall, because "some 7-8 year old might see her boob and get his mind a little twisted." My argument that his mind would be more twisted by the schizophrenic cultural attitudes we have around women's bodies down here didn't really make a dent, I'm sad to say.