If they want it to be realistic, they better impose a penalty on future scientific progress for nations that go with Christianity or Islam. I think a penalty of, say, 80% of all beakers accumulated would be about right.
"We've discovered Theory of Evolution, sir. Whoops, my bad! Christian theologists have tied Darwin to a stake and set him on fire. Back to the drawing board, I guess."
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Religion in Civ 4
- Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
As long as they hide from the church, especially during the Renaissance Era.
Rosalina: But you didn't.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
From now to about 400 - 500 years ago. Science as we now know it really didn't get started until about Newton's time. And I think it's quite clear that science as we know it has developed the most in the predominantly Christian societies of what we call Western civilization.Mental wrote:What time period are you talking about, first?
I am not claiming this to be a casual relationship, but it's undeniabley there. Keep in mind that I am also not a Christian and I purposefuly did not include Judiaism because science did not flourish in predominantly Jewish societies. (Of course, there have not been predominantly Jewish societies for several millennia.)
Oboy...
I would ask you to clarify "And I think it's quite clear that science as we know it has developed the most in the predominantly Christian societies of what we call Western civilization." I don't see that as clear at all. I mean, yes, the societies were predominantly Christian, but I would not at all concede that that's not more coincidental than anything else.
My counterargument needs a lot of research (which actually might disprove or weaken it but I'd be glad of the chance to learn some more history), but I'm mostly thinking of great thinkers who got it in spades from the Catholic Church. Copernicus, Galileo, and Darwin come to mind. The ancient (Hellenistic) Greeks venerated their scientists, which I really like and have to think encouraged the pretty comparatively huge amount of knowledge that came out of that culture and era, as opposed to Catholicism, which has more of that "excommunicate the heretical apostate" thing going on.
Also, tangentially, I would argue that belief in certain forms of Judeo-Christian monotheism is a hindrance to progress in certain other forms of current scientific thought. It's almost impossible to accept quantum theory if you're a believer in predestination, for example. Einstein, who I think most people would accept as an incredible thinker, refused to accept quantum theory, and the famous quote from him was "God does not play dice with the universe." I still remember my high school physics teacher telling us about that and saying, "Well, no, it looks like He kind of does!"
I am aware that this argument has incredible blind spots and weaknesses in it due to lack of more facts surrounding it and I would be glad of any knowledge (not necessarily supporting) that people have around the issue. There are other things I want to say but this post is long already and I might bring them up later in the discussion...
I would ask you to clarify "And I think it's quite clear that science as we know it has developed the most in the predominantly Christian societies of what we call Western civilization." I don't see that as clear at all. I mean, yes, the societies were predominantly Christian, but I would not at all concede that that's not more coincidental than anything else.
My counterargument needs a lot of research (which actually might disprove or weaken it but I'd be glad of the chance to learn some more history), but I'm mostly thinking of great thinkers who got it in spades from the Catholic Church. Copernicus, Galileo, and Darwin come to mind. The ancient (Hellenistic) Greeks venerated their scientists, which I really like and have to think encouraged the pretty comparatively huge amount of knowledge that came out of that culture and era, as opposed to Catholicism, which has more of that "excommunicate the heretical apostate" thing going on.
Also, tangentially, I would argue that belief in certain forms of Judeo-Christian monotheism is a hindrance to progress in certain other forms of current scientific thought. It's almost impossible to accept quantum theory if you're a believer in predestination, for example. Einstein, who I think most people would accept as an incredible thinker, refused to accept quantum theory, and the famous quote from him was "God does not play dice with the universe." I still remember my high school physics teacher telling us about that and saying, "Well, no, it looks like He kind of does!"
I am aware that this argument has incredible blind spots and weaknesses in it due to lack of more facts surrounding it and I would be glad of any knowledge (not necessarily supporting) that people have around the issue. There are other things I want to say but this post is long already and I might bring them up later in the discussion...
I should also point out that there were no ancient Greek scientists. There were people who tried to <i>reason</i> about the natural world, but that's not enough to make one a scientist. They considered themselves above experimentation which is fundamental to doing science. Science as we know it didn't come about until about 500 years ago.
I had it read as "causal" the first time.Kupek wrote:Re-read my second paragraph with the word <i>casual</i> replaced with <i>causal</i>.Mental wrote: I mean, yes, the societies were predominantly Christian, but I would not at all concede that that's not more coincidental than anything else.
I should also point out that there were no ancient Greek scientists. There were people who tried to reason about the natural world, but that's not enough to make one a scientist. They considered themselves above experimentation which is fundamental to doing science. Science as we know it didn't come about until about 500 years ago.
As far as science and experimentation went, where are you getting that from? Archimedes is a counterexample to that, as is Ptolemy, and I believe there have to be many others as well. I need sources (preferably primary!) for me to want to take a serious look at this as an argument.
Maybe I ought to clarify - I'm not disputing the point that science has advanced well in the U.S. anyway, and our predominant religious majority is, as you said, Christianity. But I think it's at least partially done so in spite of the religion and not because of it.
On the actual game, we already had a discussion on it a while ago:
PostPosted: 08 May 2005 09:24 pm Post subject: Sid Meier's Civilization 4 details (it finally has religion)
viewtopic.php?t=9031&highlight=civilization
Anyways, on Science and Religion.
Religion most certainly hindered the progress of any thinkers, which includes scientists. It is due to the fact that people are generally afraid to be wrong, and prefer the security of certainty rather than the fear of uncertainty. Martin Luther, was one who certainly disagreed with the accuracy of this "certainty". Essentially he found no peace in following the established rituals, seeing that no matter what he did he could not seem to reach God. Anyways, around the time of Luther, Christianity began to break down in Europe, and this would eventually break the bonds holding back the advancement of great thinkers of Europe. By the 17th Century, Europe was a very different place than Europe under the Roman Church. Of course, by this time a new major demon had shown its head, nationalism, but nationalism did not hinder scientific advancement very much in Europe.
Anyways, it is true that most scientific advancement occured in Christian nations, but a more accurate statement would be that most scientific advancement occured in nations of Germanic stock.
PostPosted: 08 May 2005 09:24 pm Post subject: Sid Meier's Civilization 4 details (it finally has religion)
viewtopic.php?t=9031&highlight=civilization
Anyways, on Science and Religion.
Religion most certainly hindered the progress of any thinkers, which includes scientists. It is due to the fact that people are generally afraid to be wrong, and prefer the security of certainty rather than the fear of uncertainty. Martin Luther, was one who certainly disagreed with the accuracy of this "certainty". Essentially he found no peace in following the established rituals, seeing that no matter what he did he could not seem to reach God. Anyways, around the time of Luther, Christianity began to break down in Europe, and this would eventually break the bonds holding back the advancement of great thinkers of Europe. By the 17th Century, Europe was a very different place than Europe under the Roman Church. Of course, by this time a new major demon had shown its head, nationalism, but nationalism did not hinder scientific advancement very much in Europe.
Anyways, it is true that most scientific advancement occured in Christian nations, but a more accurate statement would be that most scientific advancement occured in nations of Germanic stock.
-Insert Inspiring Quote-
I have made no claims of the effect religions has had. I have only offered the observation that science has flourished in socieities that are dominantly Christian, which runs counter to what you originally said.Mental wrote:Maybe I ought to clarify - I'm not disputing the point that science has advanced well in the U.S. anyway, and our predominant religious majority is, as you said, Christianity. But I think it's at least partially done so in spite of the religion and not because of it.
As for Archimedes and any other single persons, they are just that, a single person. The organized system of theory and experimentation that we call <i>science</i> is quite young. That the ancient Greeks did not rely on experimentation is, as far I know, common knowledge, and you can find it in any source that talks about the issue.
Science has also flourished mainly in areas where people have Germanic blood. Maybe they should give all Germanic tribes scientific bonuses?
-Insert Inspiring Quote-
Yeah, that's why the Arabs had such high advances in mathematics. Because of that Germanic blood and all.
Rosalina: But you didn't.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
Robert: But I DON'T.
Rosalina: You sure that's right?
Robert: I was going to HAVE told you they'd come?
Rosalina: No.
Robert: The subjunctive?
Rosalina: That's not the subjunctive.
Robert: I don't think the syntax has been invented yet.
Rosalina: It would have had to have had been.
Robert: Had to have...had...been? That can't be right.
Mathematics are a different school of study than Science; even though Math is essential to many sciences. Science includes branches such as biology, physics, and chemistry.
The discovery of gunpowder did not come as a result of science either, alchemists during the middle ages discovered it by accident when they were trying to find an elixer of of some sort, fairly similar to how tea and beer were invented by accident. The scientific revolution did not even begin until hundreds of years after the discovery of gunpowder.
What Kupek said is true, science did flourish mainly in Christian locations, but it is more accurate to say that science flourished mainly among the nations settled by the Germanic tribes (which all happened to be within the realm of Christianity). Just an observation; I apologize for exposing your ignorance. =)
The discovery of gunpowder did not come as a result of science either, alchemists during the middle ages discovered it by accident when they were trying to find an elixer of of some sort, fairly similar to how tea and beer were invented by accident. The scientific revolution did not even begin until hundreds of years after the discovery of gunpowder.
What Kupek said is true, science did flourish mainly in Christian locations, but it is more accurate to say that science flourished mainly among the nations settled by the Germanic tribes (which all happened to be within the realm of Christianity). Just an observation; I apologize for exposing your ignorance. =)
-Insert Inspiring Quote-