The Crazies Cult begins....

[Zeus]

A relatively in-depth report of what was being argued in the US federal gov't regarding restricting games

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6146902.html

I'd love to see them fine under-aged kids for attempting to buy M rated games....

[Nev]

Zeus, it's a mistake to just call all these people "crazy"...

If the game industry doesn't change *something* about its sales policies, we will be regulated - this is happening often enough that eventually the lawmakers will find a way around the constitutional arguments.

When that happens, we'll most likely end up with some variant on the old Hays production code for movies - I suppose some might think this a good thing, but I'd heard there were some very creative (and risque) movies back before the Hays code was instituted, and in any case I'd hate to see some scene I put in a game someday for creative or storytelling purposes get slashed because someone in the federal government can't handle nudity, or something. I'd much rather see the game industry try to come up with some schemes for preventing violent games from falling into the hands of minors than see the government do it...

However, as a complete unknown in the industry, it's not like I can show up at the next ESA (Entertainment Software Association) meeting and say "You guys ought to self-regulate or the government *will* do it for you." But at the very least, you shouldn't make the mistake of underestimating the strength of Liebermann (who is a very powerful Senator, as I understand it) or Hillary (who is similarly a very powerful, and scheming, woman), or any of the others involved in this.

[Zeus]

FYI, I call them crazies because of Sine's comments to my previous posts. He said it was only crazy politicians who came up with shit like this, to which I laughed and responded by showing him the bills going through the state and federal legislatures. It's the fact that they're not crazy that's scary and the pun in my nickname for them. I don't think they're crazy at all.

I have never said that there can't be more done. Having owned a games store, I know how easy and tempting it is to sell anything to anyone when there's a voluntary system. What I have always been pissed about (and what has been the basis for all my rants and arguments) is that these bills are targeting ONLY the games industry, as if it's the most dangerous form of entertainment. Hell, read that article and you see that they're actually trying to find a way so that games - and only games - aren't covered by the First Amendment since they're "offensive". For the love of God, man. If you're going to have censorship, at least let it be across the board.

This is a modern-day witch hunt by a bunch of politicians trying to gain political favour from a certain segment of the population, period. They tried it with movies, but the MPAA lobbied and finally killed the issue. They tried it with wrestling, but the PTA - and those politicians who supported it - fucked up huge and had to apologize to the McMahons. Now they've turned on the games industry because it's easy, ripe meat and it represents what the baby boomers fear the most: something they don't understand (or, as the pastor said, "instruments of the devil").

This is not just because I'm a gamer. I fucking hate politicians - or anyone - trying to tell me what is right or wrong. And, unlike what a lot of people here seem to think, if what Hilary and Liebermann are proposing goes through, we'll all be playing ONLY Nintendo-like games.

These are not the people to be deciding what is or is not appropriate. They first will have to live in the real world for some portion of their life and second actually try to understand what it is they're attempting to censor.

[Flip]

The only problem i can forsee is that really strict requirements would force developers to 'down grade' their games. In the movie industry, it is fact now that PG-13 movies make more money than R's so they sometimes cater towards it on purpose, which sucks.

[Nev]

This is not just because I'm a gamer. I fucking hate politicians - or anyone - trying to tell me what is right or wrong. And, unlike what a lot of people here seem to think, if what Hilary and Liebermann are proposing goes through, we'll all be playing ONLY Nintendo-like games.

I highly doubt that. For them to actually censor games made for adults in any serious way would require the legal equivalent of tearing up the First Amendment into a little bunch of Constitutional shreds, and that just isn't going to happen (I devoutly hope, anyway...but it has lasted this long). Even if they hit kids with fines, the adult gaming market is still huge, and is still rapidly growing.

However, you may be right that we would start to see more Nintendo-like games than previously, because publishers might see it as a "safer" bet. In any case, I doubt civilization will collapse, either way.

[Julius Seeker]

we'll all be playing ONLY Nintendo-like games.

What the hell kind of drugs are you smoking?! You KNOW very well that Satanic trash they call Pokemon will be among the first things to go! Talk about corrupting our country's youth!

In the movie industry, it is fact now that PG-13 movies make more money than R's so they sometimes cater towards it on purpose, which sucks.

It's always been about the same for videogames. Rated E games generally sell a lot better than games rated AO. In fact, I can't even think of any AO titles that have ever gone platnum, and you have some E titles selling over 30 million world-wide.

[Eric]

we'll all be playing ONLY Nintendo-like games.

What the hell kind of drugs are you smoking?! You KNOW very well that Satanic trash they call Pokemon will be among the first things to go! Talk about corrupting our country's youth!

In the movie industry, it is fact now that PG-13 movies make more money than R's so they sometimes cater towards it on purpose, which sucks.

It's always been about the same for videogames. Rated E games generally sell a lot better than games rated AO. In fact, I can't even think of any AO titles that have ever gone platnum, and you have some E titles selling over 30 million world-wide.

That's why people use M as the cut-off point.

[Zeus]

That's why people use M as the cut-off point.

The legislation that Hilary and Liebermann are proposing would make all currently rated M and even some T rated games 18+, which is the equivalent of the current AO AND make it a federal crime to sell such games to minors (remember, the movie industry ratings are also voluntary). Let me ask you a question: how many AO rated games have you seen on the shelves, particularly in Walmart, EB, or Best Buy? These stores represent more than 70% of all games sales.

When San Andreas was given that rating, it was pulled off the shelves and Take Two and Rockstar lost millions reproducing the games in special packaging in order to bring it back down to M. This is how the rating affects the types of games that we have. It's not the censorship that the real issue here, its the fact that with the currently high (and rising) production costs of games, a company cannot afford that type of severe restriction on the sale of its product. Simply put, they'll just make another Mario 64 ripoff instead of another GTA sequel. The reaction to the re-rating of San Andreas proves that.

Flip, an example of the "down-grade" is Alien vs Predator (the movie). They made a PG-13 film out of two R rated movies in order to appeal to the masses and increase their possible audience base. How good did that turn out?

I don't really play games like GTA or Manhunt; I play mostly Nintendo-like games and games rated Teen. Just my preference. But it doesn't mean that I don't want the option.

[Julius Seeker]

Zeus, it is not really about ages, M-rated is the equivilent to R rated whereas AO is equivilent to X rated. The distinction will still be made.

That's why people use M as the cut-off point.

Due to this, I do not think that things will really change. (replying to Zeus mainly on this one) M-rated titles will not become AO simply because the age is 18 instead of 17. Both R rated and X rated are 18+ but you still see R rated titles in the top 50.


That said, M-rated titles still do not sell traditionally as well as titles with lower ratings. The top selling M-rated title is Grand Theft Auto Vice City at 14th place. The top 50 only has 7 M-rated titles total: the three 3D GTA games, the two Halo games (which were flagship titles), the first Splinter Cell, and Resident Evil 2 (which ranks 50th).

Very similar to the movie industry which has only 9 titles released at rated R which are in the top 50 (possibly 10 if Jaws was R-rated). Though the #1 selling title of all time is rated R (and that is Titanic). Matrix Reloaded ranks 20th and is the next best selling R rated flick.

I still don't see absolutely zero evidence of the end of the world, or even any real change to what games will be developed at all. Movie and videogame ratings are already enforced by law here (and in Ontario, where Zeus lives) and I still see Futureshop, Zellers, EB, Microplay, and Walmart carrying R-rated and M-rated titles. That's evidence to me which shows that if similar laws were passed in the US, that the result would probably be the same as it is here.

[Flip]

Titanic is PG-13

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120338/

[Nev]

That's why people use M as the cut-off point.

The legislation that Hilary and Liebermann are proposing would make all currently rated M and even some T rated games 18+, which is the equivalent of the current AO AND make it a federal crime to sell such games to minors (remember, the movie industry ratings are also voluntary). Let me ask you a question: how many AO rated games have you seen on the shelves, particularly in Walmart, EB, or Best Buy? These stores represent more than 70% of all games sales.

That's a possibly very good point - but for one, I don't know if Wal-Mart would drop M-rated titles, and for two, even if they did, I doubt the M-rated-game market would dry up completely (though it would be hit hard).

[Zeus]

Zeus, it is not really about ages, M-rated is the equivilent to R rated whereas AO is equivilent to X rated. The distinction will still be made.

Yes it will.......anything that is now Teen will become the equivalent of Mature and anything now that is Mature will become the equivalent of AO. That's the ratings they're proposing

Due to this, I do not think that things will really change. (replying to Zeus mainly on this one) M-rated titles will not become AO simply because the age is 18 instead of 17. Both R rated and X rated are 18+ but you still see R rated titles in the top 50.

In the US, R-rated for movies is the equivalent of our AA: anyone under the age of 17 needs to have an adult to go with them to see the movie. What I've been saying this entire time is that you won't see what are currently M-rated titles if the US federal legislation passes. Companies will be forced to dumb-down the graphic qualities of the games in order to ensure they receive the new M-rating, which is the equivalent for Teen now

That said, M-rated titles still do not sell traditionally as well as titles with lower ratings. The top selling M-rated title is Grand Theft Auto Vice City at 14th place. The top 50 only has 7 M-rated titles total: the three 3D GTA games, the two Halo games (which were flagship titles), the first Splinter Cell, and Resident Evil 2 (which ranks 50th).

This is changing. Other than RE2, all of the other titles you've mentioned have been released on the current generation (until the Rev and PS3 come out, the new gen hasn't started yet).

Very similar to the movie industry which has only 9 titles released at rated R which are in the top 50 (possibly 10 if Jaws was R-rated). Though the #1 selling title of all time is rated R (and that is Titanic). Matrix Reloaded ranks 20th and is the next best selling R rated flick.

Titanic, R-rated. Heh.

The difference here is the mass-market difference in acceptance for the media. In no way has the games industry touched the movie industry in terms of mass market appeal. Yeah, their sales exceed the grosses of movies every year, but the games are also about 8x as expensive as movies and the figures for DVD sales and rentals aren't even included there. There's a HELLUVA lot less people playing games than watching movies. Since the demographics (and industry maturity) are different, you really can't compare the two

I still don't see absolutely zero evidence of the end of the world, or even any real change to what games will be developed at all. Movie and videogame ratings are already enforced by law here (and in Ontario, where Zeus lives) and I still see Futureshop, Zellers, EB, Microplay, and Walmart carrying R-rated and M-rated titles. That's evidence to me which shows that if similar laws were passed in the US, that the result would probably be the same as it is here.

In the US they're not enforcable by law yet, that's the whole idea of these hearings and failed bills in the past. And since whatever happens down there affects us, we should be concerned about it, regardless of the current laws.

Of course there's no evidence, it hasn't happened yet. I'm just telling you what I think is going to happen (well, I believe I know exactly what's going to happen, but that's another argument). I was using what happened with San Andreas as evidence since it's the closest thing we've got to the reaction by the industry.

And of course they're carrying M-rated games and R-rated titles, they're being made, aren't they? But how many of them are carrying AO rated games or X rated movies? Big fat zilch. And that's where the ratings being proposed are going to put games like GTA and Manhunt. Do you honestly think Capcom or Namco are going to release AO-equivalent rated titles to have them sold only in little shops? Please.......

[Zeus]

That's a possibly very good point - but for one, I don't know if Wal-Mart would drop M-rated titles, and for two, even if they did, I doubt the M-rated-game market would dry up completely (though it would be hit hard).

Again, they won't drop M-rated since that will be what Teen is now. But they won't carry 18+ rated (equivalent of AO), which is what M-rated titles now will be labelled.

[Flip]

The difference between the two industries is that movie theatres wont drop a movie because it is R, but a large chain will drop a game due to its rating... which prevents people from making them, etc etc...

[Julius Seeker]

Yes it will.......anything that is now Teen will become the equivalent of Mature and anything now that is Mature will become the equivalent of AO. That's the ratings they're proposing

I don't remember reading that anywhere. Where is that written.

In the US, R-rated for movies is the equivalent of our AA: anyone under the age of 17 needs to have an adult to go with them to see the movie. What I've been saying this entire time is that you won't see what are currently M-rated titles if the US federal legislation passes. Companies will be forced to dumb-down the graphic qualities of the games in order to ensure they receive the new M-rating, which is the equivalent for Teen now

The difference between 17 and 18 is only 12 months. Quite trivial. Why won't we be seeing what are currently M-rated titles? As I said, we ALREADY have legally enforced ratings in Canada, and we still see M-rated titles. What evidence is there that it will be different in the US, and that the effects will be as wide as you are claiming?

This is changing. Other than RE2, all of the other titles you've mentioned have been released on the current generation (until the Rev and PS3 come out, the new gen hasn't started yet).

True, which is probably why a problem exists with stores selling Mature themed games to minors.

The difference here is the mass-market difference in acceptance for the media. In no way has the games industry touched the movie industry in terms of mass market appeal. Yeah, their sales exceed the grosses of movies every year, but the games are also about 8x as expensive as movies and the figures for DVD sales and rentals aren't even included there. There's a HELLUVA lot less people playing games than watching movies. Since the demographics (and industry maturity) are different, you really can't compare the two

Oh the two can be compared. They are actually quite close to each other, especially now. It is just that videogames have far more interactivity and are nearly always animated. Games also do not cost 8X as much as movies; a DVD usually costs about 20-25 bucks whereas a game costs about 50-60 when new; the theater costs about $12.50 for one single ticket (and that is in the back water East where I am currently living, it's proably significantly higher in bigger cities), in neither case are they 8X as much. Also, keep in mind that there are plenty of games around that are only 20 dollars new, and sometimes 10 dollars. This is quite irrelivant though. The point is they fall under the category of media, one is just interactive media.

In the US they're not enforcable by law yet, that's the whole idea of these hearings and failed bills in the past. And since whatever happens down there affects us, we should be concerned about it, regardless of the current laws.

I see the laws as a necessary and logical step in the industry, actually. This is mainly due to the fact that there are stores who are selling kids violent and innappropriate material for our current society (which has caused a lot of parents to complain). I do not think it will change development in any way, I do not see how it would, and I do not think there is any evidence to suggest it would.

Of course there's no evidence, it hasn't happened yet. I'm just telling you what I think is going to happen (well, I believe I know exactly what's going to happen, but that's another argument). I was using what happened with San Andreas as evidence since it's the closest thing we've got to the reaction by the industry.

What happened to San Andreas was mainly because the game with that hackable scene was seen as having a pornographical side quest; which is true. A lot of stores are not interested in selling pornography, but they are fine with sexual themes and violence; and just about anything else for that matter. I don't see how a simple rating name change will make much difference.

And of course they're carrying M-rated games and R-rated titles, they're being made, aren't they? But how many of them are carrying AO rated games or X rated movies? Big fat zilch. And that's where the ratings being proposed are going to put games like GTA and Manhunt. Do you honestly think Capcom or Namco are going to release AO-equivalent rated titles to have them sold only in little shops? Please.......

You still have not considered that the reason stores do not carry AO/X rated material is because they are pornography which is highly taboo, even if legal, within most of our society. Capcom and Namco already do not release pornography related titles as far as I know. Also, I'll add, Capcom has only released a handful of M-rated titles, and Namco has released fewer M-rated titles than Nintendo.

So it comes to the point of why I think these laws should be in place. Reason: I could be wrong, but I think a good sized portion of kids in our culture are easily influenced idiots, they should not have the option to buy certain types of media.