Final Fantasy 13 out now

[SineSwiper]

Well, I consider not reading the datalog to be going against what the game is telling you to do. It would be like the game telling to how to use the jump button, and you refuse to use it, then call the game shitty for having obstacles in your way.

It's not hard to keep up with, and has a lot of good background.

[Julius Seeker]

Datalogues/encyclopedias are the logical way to bring a more advanced form of syorytelling into the genre. It's not new, Matsuno has been doing it for over a decade, and Takahashi for the past decade. I would like it to be convention.

[SineSwiper]

Yeah, Mass Effect is another game series that makes great use of them, even giving voiceovers to the data entries. Both sci-fi and fantasy are genres that really benefit from that extra information, given that they are creating an entire new world that needs explaining.

[Don]

There's a difference between providing extra background versus designing stuff that you cannot possibly even figure out what it means without consulting an in game encyclopedia.

A good example of something that works from just contenxt is the Al Bhed relations in FF10. You don't have to consult an encyclopedia to know that Al Bhed are not like by other people, or why. They dress kind of funny, speak a different language, and use machinas that rest of Spira shun (unless it's for Blitzball). There's no datalog entry for 'why everyone hates the Al Bhed'. It is clear that everyone in Spira hates the Al Bhed, and this built into the game, but it doesn't need to explain it because you can see why people hate the Al Bhed. Now if FF10 wants to throw some 'history of Al Bhed interracial relationship' somewhere interested parties can check it out, but it's not a necessity to understand why things happen the way they are.

[Shrinweck]

Let's not go crazy here, the game is hardly impossible to follow without using the datalog. Honestly I've maybe gone into them once and I feel like I have a good grasp of what everything is. Sure it was weird in the beginning but you can tell what you need to know based on what and how people are talking about things.

Purging was obviously something that I would not enjoy happening to me.

The mystery enhanced certain aspects of the story because not even the main characters actually knew what things were and what exactly was going on.

[SineSwiper]

Yea, auto-battle is a bit of a must later on. The battle's just move so fast. I do interupt the auto-battle, however. For instance, it will default to casting 5 cures on someone. Somtimes I only want to do 2 because I have to switch to another role quick to accomplish something, so I interupt it after 2 have been cast.

....

I'm having a very hard time getting 5 stars on some of the battles I've been fighting lately. Think I may have to grind a bit more so I can drop enemies faster. I'm about 30 hours in.

I've almost never used auto-battle, even 5-6 hours in. You can just use the repeat command to repeat your last known series of commands. Usually fights demand something like Blitz+Attack for multi-enemy battles, then you go to 3xAttack for the single fights, and switch your PSs.

Right now, it seems like Lightning's Ravisher skill sucks because it doesn't have enough combo ability and does less dmg than just attacking with Commando. I'm also annoyed that I have 4 ppl right now, but I can't switch out anybody.

[Zeus]

Talking about a game's faults, or why one does not enjoy a game, is part of discussing a game.

Sure it is. But is jumping down someone's throat with nothing but personal attacks or simply using the "you don't know what you're doing" or "you just don't get it" response in a condescending manner an acceptable response?

[Kupek]

I think it's acceptable to say "I don't think you're playing the game on its own terms," or "I don't think you understand some of the important concepts in the game." The difference is in civility, which we are pretty bad about around here. Hence, most of our discussions eventually devolve into discussing the discussion, instead of the topic.

[Eric]

Pfft, why be civil, I've known most of you bums for 10 years.

[SineSwiper]

Okay, now I'm starting to use the auto-battle. It's getting to be a bit much to keep track of every enemies' weakness, and the 8+ skills to use. Still testing it out to see if it's accurate. Some of its decisions about AoE vs. single attack are off a bit, but some of that has to do with trying to get a enemy on stagger, rather than trying to hit multiple enemies.

Also, trying to collect enough organic components is annoying. I get a few at a time, and every so slowly up my weapon a bit in exp bonus. It's not like when I had 4 hours worth of material and turned it into a lv11 weapon. (This was when I first got the Omni-tool to craft.) I still have plenty of electronic parts, however.

[RentCavalier]

I didn't even realize that there was a big diff. between organic and nonorganic components until, like, Disc 3.

On that note, really digging the game so far. I just went through this huge tower reminiscent of the Pharos from FFXII, complete with a big epic boss fight.

Then, the game makes me do a fetch quest. *siiiiiiiiigh*

The difficulty is evening out now, and I'm getting better at the faster paradigm shifts and getting more complex job set-ups built. The annoying thing that I've realized is, for non-mage characters, making any other class besides your main 3 is almost totally useless--you're gimped for skills, you get shitty stat boosts for your trouble, and it costs an arm and a leg. Casters are a little more manageable, since even a basic Cure spell can turn a non-healer into a decent emergency backup.

[Eric]

Disc...3? Oh you bought the X-box version, ho ho ho.

*Flees*

[Zeus]

I think it's acceptable to say "I don't think you're playing the game on its own terms," or "I don't think you understand some of the important concepts in the game." The difference is in civility, which we are pretty bad about around here. Hence, most of our discussions eventually devolve into discussing the discussion, instead of the topic.

I agree completely. So what do we do about that?

[Shrinweck]

It's pretty simple - adhere to the topics being talked about and refrain from calling each other names. Unless it's funny. Name calling while it's funny is always fine. Unless you're talking about how to enforce it... in which case the solution is usually banning and probation but when your user base is this small that's not really an option. At this point I would say mockery is the best option but then this starts into a vicious circle :P

[Zeus]

It's pretty simple - adhere to the topics being talked about and refrain from calling each other names. Unless it's funny. Name calling while it's funny is always fine. Unless you're talking about how to enforce it... in which case the solution is usually banning and probation but when your user base is this small that's not really an option. At this point I would say mockery is the best option but then this starts into a vicious circle

We've tried that in the past, doesn't work. It's an opinion what is or is not grounds for banning. So no one does it.

But when it comes to personal attacks, it's easy to tell with a small community like this what is or is not joking. What if it isn't?

[Julius Seeker]

Okay, now I'm starting to use the auto-battle. It's getting to be a bit much to keep track of every enemies' weakness, and the 8+ skills to use. Still testing it out to see if it's accurate. Some of its decisions about AoE vs. single attack are off a bit, but some of that has to do with trying to get a enemy on stagger, rather than trying to hit multiple enemies.

Also, trying to collect enough organic components is annoying. I get a few at a time, and every so slowly up my weapon a bit in exp bonus. It's not like when I had 4 hours worth of material and turned it into a lv11 weapon. (This was when I first got the Omni-tool to craft.) I still have plenty of electronic parts, however.

Organic materials are fairly cheap to buy, it's about 2500 (or 1 cred chip) or so to buy enough to upgrade any item to X3.

[Eric]

So uhhhh...what's the verdict? Is the game good and worth buying?

I have to decide between Mass Effect 2 and this... Shame I don't have more time and could play both.

I think you'd enjoy ME2 a bit more.

[Zeus]

So uhhhh...what's the verdict? Is the game good and worth buying?

I have to decide between Mass Effect 2 and this... Shame I don't have more time and could play both.

How satisfied have you been with JRPGs the last 5 years or so? FF13 is relatively different than what we grew up with but it still is a JRPG through and through

[Shrinweck]

If you like being able to make choices that aren't just about combat then ME2 is your thing :P

The ME2 cast could beat the ever loving shit out of the FF13 cast.

But oddly you still get to only use three people at once.

[RentCavalier]

I never liked Mass Effect, so I'd recommend FFXIII. But I'd recommend FFXIII just on its own merits. It's a great game with good mechanics, likeable characters, an interesting story, and GORGEOUS graphics. The battle system is intuitive and deceptively deep, with plenty of customization and a hectic, frantic pace that lends to quick and intense fights. Even basic encounters are intense and furious, and by end-game, the difficulty spikes up, and regular enemies provide ample challenge, even once you've mastered the battle system.

It's a really fun game, though it's slow pace and hit or miss soundtrack may leave you bitter, and the writing--while leagues above most JRPGs--is still shoddy in places, especially in the beginning. It's a game that rewards you the more you put into it, and its pacing is really quite good, so you'll be engaged long past the point when you're sold by the game.

[Eric]

Disc...3? Oh you bought the X-box version, ho ho ho.

*Flees*

Gee, I get to switch discs two times during the course of 20-40 hours. That is sooooo amazingly hard.

All that effort your poor hand went through switching discs.

[Oracle]

Word of advice: Do the Cei'th quests. One opens up a new store that makes upgrading weapons considerably cheaper in the long run.

About chocobos:

Spoiler: show

Anyone know how to ride the god damn chocobos? They appear on my screen now as feathers, and I'm pretty sure you need a chocobo to access the green interaction points, but can't figure out how to ride one, whether it be from a Cei'th quest unlock or a shop.

[Julius Seeker]

Thanks for the tip Oracle, I hav been off FF13 for a week, but I think tonight will be the day I get back on.

[SineSwiper]

Which mechanical items are best for buying to upgrade weapons? It seems like they give you all of these different items, but I'm trying to find the best cost:XP ratio. Is it better to buy the 200gil items, or the 840gil items?

[Julius Seeker]

I think the difference in which items you use is negligible. I haven't done any real in depth experimenting though. I think the more expensive the item, the more bang for your buck though.

[Oracle]

There is the 1600gil Perfect conductor, and the 10,000gil Particle accelerator. Both are essentially equivalent cost per point ratio, with the particle accelerator having something like a 1-2% edge.

Then there is the 50,000gil item in the R&D depot that unlocks after you do a certain Cei'th quest. To get the equivalent points from a particle accelerator or perfect conductor, you have to spend 83,333gil. Only problem with the 50,000gil item is that it gives so many points that it's usually overkill to max out a first tier item.

More about chocobos

Spoiler: show

Chocobos are also tied to a Cei'th quest. Finished one last night that gave me the reins to ride. Fuck me Gran Pulse is huge. So much side stuff to do before moving on with the story.

[RentCavalier]

Yeah, but all that side stuff is confined to ONE area and I accidently moved past it without activating the warp point. Now I have to walk all the way back from the front of Taejin's Tower. Christ, if I can even get back at all...

The big boss in Oerba is kicking my ass. It's like a wall I can't climb, so I guess that means I gotta grind.

[Julius Seeker]

Pulse is a beautiful location though; it's so organic compared to Cocoon.

[SineSwiper]

The soldiers on the main airship where Vanille/Sazh are being held is full of those soldiers with the 2500gil chips. Spent a few hours farming that area and got most of my weapons to the first star, and fully filled everybody's skills.

[Oracle]

For the boss at the end of Oerba (Barthandelus)

Spoiler: show

First of all: Daze is a bitch. If this is causing you problems, get one of the daze resist rings upgraded to 60% resist. Toss this on someone who is a medic. This will save your ass.

I used Lightning, Fang and Vanille. I start the battle with Medic/Sab/Sab to debuff quick (make sure slow, deprotect, and deshell are on at least), and then switch to Rav/Com/Rav to spike the stagger gauge. If he is about to use his massive AoE (where his face splits and guns come out), I switch to Med/Sent/Med to ride out the damage and heal up quick.

When he uses Apothesis, I switch back to med/sab/sab to debuff again. If he starts to cast debuffs on you, switch to med/sent/med and use Esuna ASAP. At least get the magic damage debuff off, or you're boned.

Once I get him staggered, I switch to com/com/med and go to town on him.

The party I use right now is Lightning/Fang/Hope, but that's only because Hope can get Haste now. Don't think he can get the spell before Barthandelus in Oerba. Might be useful to switch out Vanille with Sazh for the Barthandelus encounter, but I'd only do that if you pumped up Sazh to have at least Esuna. This way, you can start the fight with Med/Sab/Syn. Only problem is that Apothesis negates all debuffs AND buffs, both for Bart and the party.

[SineSwiper]

At Chapter 11, and I'm getting tired of several aspects of this area:

1. It's so random whether you get anything of value in both the chests and with creatures. I mean, you fight some hard fight, finally open up some chest, get 10 of some organic item, and think "Gee, I could have bought that for 500gil". Of course, you don't have 500gil, because nothing seems to give you anything of value. Compare that to the credits I was getting with the soldiers on the previous chapter.

2. I die. A lot. The difficulty went from pretty damn easy to really hard without any sort of ramp up. And this is me spending several hours upgrading my weapons and items with all of those credits from the previous chapter. It seems like to finish off some battles, you HAVE to sneak up on them. For example, if you're fighting some battle with creatures that call others, such as that round phalanx creature, if you don't start launch him VERY quickly, he'll just call 4-6 more enemies, beef them up with all of these abilities, and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. You'll just die, and even if everybody was healing, you can't stop it. I fought them 20 times trying to kill it before I consented to using a Sneak sol (since he never turns around) to kill them.

3. For that matter, where the hell are my sols? I used to get them all the time in the very beginning. Now I go for hours without getting a single one. Fuck, if you're going to bother having me open up chests, at least put one of those things in there, instead of some stupid organic material.

4. What the hell is "defense" in this game? There are two stats, and defense ain't one of them. I'd quit dying if I could find ways of boosting my defense.

5. Summons blow donkeys. Seriously, what the fuck is the point of spending 3TP, when the fucker doesn't blow away NORMAL creatures? When I cast a summon in FF7, shit died. I don't mean by a slim margin, either. It was a You Win button for normal battles, but it also cost a lot of MP. Here, you are using a lot of TP, and you get the same damage output as your team. WTF?!

[Shrinweck]

I think you get access to a store that sells sols in chapter 12.

[Blotus]

I want to proceed to Chapter 12 but I'm trying to get the growth orb from Mission 55 and it's... ridiculously hard. I've killed some Adamantoise(s?) for mega CP but M55 boss Neochu is still raping me in one round. Easiest way to kill it early on is apparently Vanille's Death spell but I haven't had much luck with that yet since she usually doesn't survive the first attack of the fight.

Chapter 11 is great other than two small issues: 1) like Sine said, there are no sols anywhere to be found and all I have left is Deceptisol, which does not help much against some of the harder marks, and 2) really easy enemies respawn and cannot always be avoided. I know the battles only take ten seconds plus into/outro, but it's still annoying to have to fight alarunes or flans for no CP when you're trying to get from one point to the other. Also, there should be more teleportation stones in the Steppe especially, but in general.

So anyway, I really like Chapter 11 and wish that the next time I go through the game (if I do) that I could skip right to it.

Sine, stop whining.

[Oracle]

I beat the game last week. I picked it up again yesterday to do some of the marks, but I got bored very quickly.

I didn't get the growth orb or whatever from M55 (haven't heard of it before this). I don't remember even attempting it, altho there are 4 rank A marks that I've just given up on. One of them is two of those casting Cei'th. They just multi-cast on me before I can get any buffs up and blow me away, and they use different elements so I have to use a magic or all elemental resist accessory and get it beefed up, which I really don't feel like spending time on.

I also tried another mark yesterday in the tiered marks area (with that big giant Fal'Cei). I got to one where I had to kill 3 tonberries. I killed 1, but then one of my medics died, and I was using Fang as the primary so I could spam daze on them so I couldn't switch to a medic myself. Of course the secondary medic (lightning) tried to heal everyone to full before actually ressurecting anyone, so I died. I just wasn't quick enough to try a phoenix down since I was busy trying to daze the fuckers so they wouldn't rape me. Too many resists.

I'll see maybe this weekend about picking it back up and trying the rest of the marks out. Anyone know if there is anything else to do besides finishing the Cei'th marks, as well as the tiered Cei'th mark area?

[Oracle]

Oh and by the way (read this if you are interested in knowing if you can go back to do marks before the end of the game)

Spoiler: show

You can port back to Gran Pulse in the last zone in the game on Cocoon. This way, you open all the stores up, can buy more sols, and do the harder marks before beating the game. Or you can just beat the game, save, and then go back and do them like I'm doing now.

[Eric]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... ntasy-XIII

Yahtzee's review is out.

*Pours oil on fire*

[Blotus]

I lol'd.

[SineSwiper]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... ntasy-XIII

Yahtzee's review is out.

*Pours oil on fire*

LOL. Funny and totally inaccurate (for once). I think he did that just to piss people off, and he doesn't really like RPGs that much.

[Eric]

He doesn't like JRPGs. I don't think his Dragon Age review was totally negative.

[Oracle]

Eh, not that inaccurate. The first 5 hours of the game has me going WTF is going on, and the battle was near non-existent.

You really do have to get about 10-15 hours into the game before it starts making the smallest bit of sense (if you don't read the fucking datalog, which I didn't until I ordered some chinese food in one night and was really bored). Also have to get that far into it before you have any type of choice as to what party members you are going to use, and how to use them.

[Zeus]

Eh, not that inaccurate. The first 5 hours of the game has me going WTF is going on, and the battle was near non-existent.

You really do have to get about 10-15 hours into the game before it starts making the smallest bit of sense (if you don't read the fucking datalog, which I didn't until I ordered some chinese food in one night and was really bored). Also have to get that far into it before you have any type of choice as to what party members you are going to use, and how to use them.

This is exactly what Blotus and I were complaining about. You have to read the dialogue before the storyline made sense and it really does take around 12 hours before the battle system doesn't suck ass in every way imaginable (odd, that coincides with you not relying on Pussy as your only other team member....). I'm sorry, but that's just poor game design if you make people suffer that long and force them to read extra stuff just so the story makes sense.

[SineSwiper]

This is exactly what Blotus and I were complaining about. You have to read the dialogue before the storyline made sense and it really does take around 12 hours before the battle system doesn't suck ass in every way imaginable (odd, that coincides with you not relying on Pussy as your only other team member....). I'm sorry, but that's just poor game design if you make people suffer that long and force them to read extra stuff just so the story makes sense.

Shut up. You sold your game before you finished it, so your opinion doesn't count. And again, you people are whiners and complainers. Hell, the battle system was a lot more interesting when you got magic and paradigms, which was 5-6 hours in. It was a radically different system, which is the reason why they had such a slow progression.

And oh god! You mean I have to READ stuff? Which the game tells you to do? Fuck NO! Don't make me READ stuff. I think it was supposed to have nothing but pictures! What about the people who can't READ stuff?

[Blotus]

And again, you people are whiners and complainers.

At Chapter 11, and I'm getting tired of several aspects of this area:

1. It's so random whether you get anything of value in both the chests and with creatures. I mean, you fight some hard fight, finally open up some chest, get 10 of some organic item, and think "Gee, I could have bought that for 500gil". Of course, you don't have 500gil, because nothing seems to give you anything of value. Compare that to the credits I was getting with the soldiers on the previous chapter.

2. I die. A lot. The difficulty went from pretty damn easy to really hard without any sort of ramp up. And this is me spending several hours upgrading my weapons and items with all of those credits from the previous chapter. It seems like to finish off some battles, you HAVE to sneak up on them. For example, if you're fighting some battle with creatures that call others, such as that round phalanx creature, if you don't start launch him VERY quickly, he'll just call 4-6 more enemies, beef them up with all of these abilities, and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. You'll just die, and even if everybody was healing, you can't stop it. I fought them 20 times trying to kill it before I consented to using a Sneak sol (since he never turns around) to kill them.

3. For that matter, where the hell are my sols? I used to get them all the time in the very beginning. Now I go for hours without getting a single one. Fuck, if you're going to bother having me open up chests, at least put one of those things in there, instead of some stupid organic material.

4. What the hell is "defense" in this game? There are two stats, and defense ain't one of them. I'd quit dying if I could find ways of boosting my defense.

5. Summons blow donkeys. Seriously, what the fuck is the point of spending 3TP, when the fucker doesn't blow away NORMAL creatures? When I cast a summon in FF7, shit died. I don't mean by a slim margin, either. It was a You Win button for normal battles, but it also cost a lot of MP. Here, you are using a lot of TP, and you get the same damage output as your team. WTF?!

/whine

Because we absolutely take Yahtzee's opinion on everything to be the gospel truth.

It usually works, even on the games you like.

Yahtzee, AKA The Man, blasted BOTH of those games. Though, I already bought Dead Space, so I'll play it at some point.

[Zeus]

This is exactly what Blotus and I were complaining about. You have to read the dialogue before the storyline made sense and it really does take around 12 hours before the battle system doesn't suck ass in every way imaginable (odd, that coincides with you not relying on Pussy as your only other team member....). I'm sorry, but that's just poor game design if you make people suffer that long and force them to read extra stuff just so the story makes sense.

Shut up. You sold your game before you finished it, so your opinion doesn't count. And again, you people are whiners and complainers. Hell, the battle system was a lot more interesting when you got magic and paradigms, which was 5-6 hours in. It was a radically different system, which is the reason why they had such a slow progression.

And oh god! You mean I have to READ stuff? Which the game tells you to do? Fuck NO! Don't make me READ stuff. I think it was supposed to have nothing but pictures! What about the people who can't READ stuff?

As usual, Sine, you completely ignored all the mounting evidence against your point of view and stood on top of your soapbox yelling at the top of your lungs.

First of all, I put over 18 hours into FF13. Not 2, not 5, 18+. That means I put more hours into FF13 than I did into any of the other games I've played in the last, what, year and a half? That includes Assassin's Creed 2, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Bioshock 2, God of War 3....basically everything aside from maybe Left 4 Dead 2. Hell, I put more time into that so far than I put into Mario & Luigi Partners in Time and I beat that game. So it's not like I have no idea what I'm talking about, I put in my time, I have the right to complain.

Second, I praise as much as I complain. Just 'cause you conveniently ignore the good don't mean there ain't none.

Third, your only non-bitching, Seek-like comment is that the battle system gets interesting with magic and paradigms, which is 5-6 hours in. See my point #1 above and you'll see how silly that comment really is.

Fourth, I never complained about having stuff to read. I spent a shitton of time reading stuff in other games, I'm one of those who likes to do that in games I enjoy (and I promise you, I read more in a day than you do; half my job is reading shit). I had a great time reading up on the history of and visiting the landmarks in Assassin's Creed 2 with my history grad bud for a couple of hours and my cuz and I spent a lot of time going through the profiles and histories of all the characters in Arkham Asylum. I was complaining 'cause you were FORCED to do it to properly understand the storyline. When you watch a movie, do you get a little pamphlet and they pause every 20 minutes for you to read a few paragraphs 'cause you won't fully understand the plot if you don't? Do you want to do some homework before you can enjoy your entertainment? No, because that would be fucking stupid and lazy and/or poor filmmaking. If you luvs that film, you may be likely to go home and read up on it and some of the backstory to it (ie. based on a real-life story or just how they really made Hobbiton look great). But that's what this game is forcing you to do and it would be the same thing as a pause in a film. Simply put, it's lazy and poor gamemaking, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Finally, it really, really is OK for me to disagree with your opinion. I'm sure you know that. But the post above doesn't seem to indicate that you really believe it. Seems like you took over the job of the Chief of the FFDF (Final Fantasy Defense Force) in a coup sometime in the last couple of weeks. And in case you haven't noticed, after the 12 hour mark, I've soften my extreme hatred for the game a little. I'm getting the game back today and will likely beat it over the Easter weekend. I may yet get closer to your love for the game but still, that don't mean I don't get no opinion for myself (I think that triple negative just put Kup into a coma :-).

Sine, I have no idea what bug's been up your ass recently, but you really gotta stop with these Seek-like posts. I was just responding in kind above but I really have no ill will towards you at all. And you're really better than this. You, like me, complain a lot 'cause you have a lot to complain about. I'm with you on those, I fully understand. But these personal attack posts just aren't like you, leave them for others here.

[Julius Seeker]

[quote"Zeus"]really gotta stop with these Seek-like posts[/quote]

You mean, pointing out how your whine posts are a huge waste of space in threads that are actually trying to discuss something? What do you actually hope to accomplish? You come in and spam this thread, bashing a game that we're discussing (and enjoying); then when we tell you to shove your head up your ass, you throw in a hissy-pissy holier than thou post which you probably think is an inteligent analysis of the situation.

Seriously, just simply get a life.

[SineSwiper]

First of all, I put over 18 hours into FF13. Not 2, not 5, 18+. That means I put more hours into FF13 than I did into any of the other games I've played in the last, what, year and a half? That includes Assassin's Creed 2, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Bioshock 2, God of War 3....basically everything aside from maybe Left 4 Dead 2. Hell, I put more time into that so far than I put into Mario & Luigi Partners in Time and I beat that game. So it's not like I have no idea what I'm talking about, I put in my time, I have the right to complain.

Fine, if you put 18 hours into the game, why are you complaining about it and why did you take it back? Overall, it's a good game. Yes, I complained about one section of the game, but overall it's a good game. Also, most of those games are 10 hour games, so of course you didn't put 18 hours into them. I'm just rather irate that you didn't finish the game.

Shit, I have ditched just about every JRPG I've played because they are ultimately boring with the shitty story, but I'm still playing this one. If anybody should be dropping another JRPG, it should be me, not you.

Second, I praise as much as I complain. Just 'cause you conveniently ignore the good don't mean there ain't none.

Good, then finish the fucking game. Don't sell it back.

I was complaining 'cause you were FORCED to do it to properly understand the storyline. When you watch a movie, do you get a little pamphlet and they pause every 20 minutes for you to read a few paragraphs 'cause you won't fully understand the plot if you don't? Do you want to do some homework before you can enjoy your entertainment? No, because that would be fucking stupid and lazy and/or poor filmmaking4. If you luvs that film, you may be likely to go home and read up on it and some of the backstory to it (ie. based on a real-life story or just how they really made Hobbiton look great). But that's what this game is forcing you to do and it would be the same thing as a pause in a film. Simply put, it's lazy and poor gamemaking, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

It's not lazy. It's different. In fact, it's starting to be an industry shift, as you're seeing more and more games put in encyclopedia functions. And the story is better because of it. You have more believable dialog, and not some dumbass character who's only point is to explain shit to the audience.

See, this kind of behavior is the reason why filmmakers and video game studios can't branch out to new and different ideas. For example, everybody hated Southland Tales because it started on Chapter 4, and the first three chapters were on comics. I thought the movie had enough backstory to explain things, but others hated it. (And I watched the movie first, then read the comics, and watch the movie again.) The Matrix tried to use different mediums to tell their story. (Though, yes, the game between 1 and 2 did suck.)

Fine, whatever. I guess you either love it or hate it with this game (or game mechanic).

I'm getting the game back today and will likely beat it over the Easter weekend. I may yet get closer to your love for the game but still, that don't mean I don't get no opinion for myself (I think that triple negative just put Kup into a coma :-).

Huh? I thought you sold the game.

Sine, I have no idea what bug's been up your ass recently, but you really gotta stop with these Seek-like posts. I was just responding in kind above but I really have no ill will towards you at all. And you're really better than this. You, like me, complain a lot 'cause you have a lot to complain about. I'm with you on those, I fully understand. But these personal attack posts just aren't like you, leave them for others here.

I dunno. I think we've been getting on each other's nerves lately.

[SineSwiper]

Back to the actual game, the scene with Sazh and Vanille on Chapter 8ish is a really good:

Spoiler: show

You really felt the anguish with both characters. It's also one of the darkest directions that I'd seen a FF game go. Granted, FF7 killed somebody, but with a silent protagonist, there wasn't much emotion there. It was more of a surprise than a dark scene. Here you have Sazh threatening to kill her, then himself, then her. FF just doesn't do suicide at all.

Of course, this kind of direction is more typical in American stories, but it shows that JRPGs are trying to grow up, at least one series is.

[Don]

I don't see why people always make an argument like 'the game sucks up to X hours but you got to play until it gets good', especially when X is like more than 10 or 20. If the game starts out sucking there's no reason why anyone should stick around until it gets better. It's the game's problem that it loses you early on, not the player's.

On the story telling bit, go back to say FF10 for an example of where you don't have to rely on outside source to explain the game. You can go through the game without ever knowing the background story of Yu Yevon but it doesn't hinder the game in any way. Nobody in the game specfically says: "Psst Yu Yevon is the god figure in the prominent religion in Spira." You can sort of just figure this out because it is rather obvious from the context clue. No one also says: "Al Bhed doesn't get along with rest of Spira because they look funny, speak a different language, and uses machinas that no one else uses.' You can pick that up the first time you encounter one. There's a historian that tells you more about the conflict between Zanarkand and Beville if you want to find out that kind of stuff, but the game doesn't assume you've read the history to understand the game.

The FF13 style is more of an Emperor has no Cloths deal. It's bad story telling but you can tell yourself only people who 'gets it' can see what it means, when it really is just bad storytelling. The difference between FF10 and FF13 is sort of like the difference between Sai and Hikaru in Hikaru no Go. It's safe to assume 99% of the guys who read HNG would have no idea how to follow Go, and even if you did the screen shows too little of it for anyone to actually follow. But you don't have to be told that Sai is really that awesome in a game you cannot possibly follow, while Hikaru the story has to constantly remind you that he really is that awesome because you sure can't tell otherwise. In FF10 the worldview integrates quite well with the game and you simply can figure things out without being told. In FF13 the worldview relies on an encyclopedia to explain what's going on.

[Oracle]

I like the game.

[SineSwiper]

Aye, I do, too. Personally, I'm tired of arguing about it.