Updated Wii sales tracking (Figures for all 3 markets).

[Zeus]

Nintendo has done well appealing to the non-gamers, thats very true. And that is a market way bigger than actual gamers.

Everyone i know who doesnt play games wants a wii, which turns me off immediately.

Its a system for the masses, not the hardcores.

So you're saying they've achieved their goal of appealing to 80% of the gaming population rather than just 20%?

[Flip]

80% of the gaming population? The are appealing to 80% of the general population. They broadened their horizons, i dont blame them for anything, but to me it doesnt seem like a hardcore gaming console. I'll still probably buy a PS3 or maybe even fold and get a 360.

[kali o.]

Nintendo has done well appealing to the non-gamers, thats very true. And that is a market way bigger than actual gamers.

Everyone i know who doesnt play games wants a wii, which turns me off immediately.

Its a system for the masses, not the hardcores.

So you're saying they've achieved their goal of appealing to 80% of the gaming population rather than just 20%?

I'm gonna call *cough*bullshit*cough*. While there is no doubt there are a few people out there intrigued by the motion technology who may have ignored consoles before - that number is nowhere close to what you suggest. Nintendo has a large fanbase and a new console launching with a Zelda game - the Wii would sell out from that core alone, it has nothing to do with "casuals or non-gamers". The would've-anyway's are buying it.

Yes, I know you were merely working off of Flips statement, but that doesn't make this back and forth any less silly from either of you.

[Lox]

I don't know where the idea that something can't be good if it appeals to a broader audience came from. "Hardcore" is kind of a ridiculous term. What does it mean for a system to be hardcore? Trust me, the Wii is fun and that's what I thought gaming was about.

I'll be getting an Xbox 360 in the future too, but not because it's "hardcore". I'll be getting it because it's fun.

[bovine]

Yeah.... what do you mean by hardcore? or are you talking about more like... "serious" games like MGS and God of War...... you know, not the crazy shit that Nintendo has had come out for the wii so far (not including zelda). I hope the Wii doesn't follow the Gamecube route of primarily first party games being the majority of good games for the system. If it goes the DS route with bullshit titles to start and then just unrelenting amazing games coming out for it afterwards.... then I'm going to be happy with my investment.

I don't want you to think that I'm really biased.... I am eventually going to get the ps3.... But the time has to be right. I'd buy it now if I had my PAX trip saved up for and my next semester's tuition in the bank and an extra $700 on top of that. Hell, I'd buy it with no games under that circumstance. I am pretty excited about the system's potential.... It's pretty much the worst system on the market right now in terms of ridiculous price and its terrible library of games (although I would say that the Wii beats the PS3's library in VC games alone now that LTtP came out)

[Flip]

The reason i havent bought a PS3 so far is because there is nothing out for it i want. I'm happy to wait until there are 2 titles i want to play. I cant believe, Bov, that you are basing a current gen's library by including games from the NES... i have LTtP, it isnt a Wii game.

Without sounding like a broken record (the Sony rep) i honestly feel the Wii is gimicky and not a true video game system, its more of a toy than anything. Call me a traditionalist i guess, i want to sit down and play my games on a console that is using everything our superior technology can do to make it look great. If the Wii was beefed up and cost 900 bucks i probably would buy it. I feel like i'm ripping myself off by buying a system with old technology and no hi-def hookups when it could be more.

Plus, i play most of my games by myself. Its a relaxer for me and i get absorbed in it much like i do a good book. The Wii is a party system, and suits that purpose very well.

[bovine]

The reason i havent bought a PS3 so far is because there is nothing out for it i want. I'm happy to wait until there are 2 titles i want to play. I cant believe, Bov, that you are basing a current gen's library by including games from the NES... i have LTtP, it isnt a Wii game.

Without sounding like a broken record (the Sony rep) i honestly feel the Wii is gimicky and not a true video game system, its more of a toy than anything. Call me a traditionalist i guess, i want to sit down and play my games on a console that is using everything our superior technology can do to make it look great. If the Wii was beefed up and cost 900 bucks i probably would buy it. I feel like i'm ripping myself off by buying a system with old technology and no hi-def hookups when it could be more.

Plus, i play most of my games by myself. Its a relaxer for me and i get absorbed in it much like i do a good book. The Wii is a party system, and suits that purpose very well.

Yeah, right now it is a little gimmicky... and the graphics are lame (that's probably not going to change)... and the games pretty much all point to fun multiplayer and short, uninspired single player.... but I'm still hoping it's going to be like the DS which followed this exact same route only to buck that stereotype and start making awesome games that have a lot of depth (advance wars, FF3, Mario & Luigi, Animal Crossing, New Mario Bros) or really good multiplayer (Mario Kart, Prime: Hunters).
Anyways, I also want to say that I agree with you. Buying it with no HD, bland graphics and potentially foolish controls (though it picks up really small movements.... so flicking your wrist can be as effective as a full-arm swing) is kind of frivolous when there is much better technology out there. I have really abandoned the wii ever since I grabbed the 360 and found more engrossing games to fill my time. If I were to get any multiplatform games.... I wouldn't be getting them for the wii. If Splinter Cell or Call of Duty 3 are any examples of what is to come.... it looks pretty bleak for the wii in that category. Anyways, I totally see where you're coming from.... the Wii's 480p isn't really anything to jump up for joy about. The component cables for it just turn it from a blurry mess to a jaggy mess.

[Oracle]

80% of the gaming population? The are appealing to 80% of the general population. They broadened their horizons, i dont blame them for anything, but to me it doesnt seem like a hardcore gaming console. I'll still probably buy a PS3 or maybe even fold and get a 360.

This statement seems a little silly to me. I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm just going based off your wording. If you look at the field, the Wii is the most "hardcore" gaming console out there, primarily because that's what it is, a gaming console. The PS3 and Xbox360 are essentially Media Centers that play games :p

I do get what you are saying, however. You seem to like the "Epic" and "big budget" games (GoW, Halo 3, FFXIII, etc.). I can't say that I don't like those types of games myself. I'll eventually be getting a 360, PS3, or both. The Wii just serves a different purpose for me.

IMO, the Wii appeals to so many people because it's a) easy to just pick up and play when you don't have much time on your hands and b) appeals to social gatherings much more than picking up four Xbox360 controllers and trying to teach your girlfriend, your friend, and your friend's girlfriend how to play GoW.

And honestly, "hardcore gaming console"? *laugh* That's almost a contradictory statement in itself. You want hardcore gaming? Buy a high end PC (ok that last paragraph might have been a bit of trolling)

[Julius Seeker]

What's a hardcore gamer? Someone who is simply hardcore into gaming. It has nothing to do with what system they prefer. There are some hardcore gamers out there who play mostly old NES titles. It may be a gamer who plays a few specific games, in excess, and gets insanely good at them.

Why is Wii as popular as it is?

#1, people see it as the home console version of the DS. Even though the PSP is several times more powerful than the DS, the DS is easily the better system mostly due to its greater functionality and wider variety of games. It is the same deal as the Wii compared to the PS3. Only unlike DS, Wii has some great games out now, which gets me to point #2

#2 , Wii did not launch with a typical launch line-up. It launched with two major titles, Wii Sports (which is currently the hottest multiplayer game on the planet), and Legend of Zelda (which is currently one of the hottest single player titles out there). Along with those two are a series of games very well received by gamers including Red Steel, Rayman, Elebits, Wii Play, and Trauma center; which have all sold extremely well for the first two months of a system launch. The system has been followed up with some new titles which have also been major sellers including: Wario Ware and Super Swing Golf (yes, finally Golf games are actually fun =P). Then there are a great number of highly anticipated games just on the horizon which include the Wii Killer Ap Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Sonic, SSX Blur, SSB Brawl, and Fire Emblem. New games popping up all the time, Godfather and TMNT were just announced, and their release dates are just next month; Scarface was just announced this week too, no confirmed release date yet. Some new games by Sega were just announced, an RPG and an "Action RPG." This doesn't even get into the Virtual Console which is my next point.

#3 Virtual Consle: There will never be a slow time for the Wii due to this feature, there are always games being released for the VC, and for very cheap prices. These games range from various systems spanning back decades, and include many classic titles already. Not to mention that original works are on their way too. There are already major titles out for the VC and we haven't even got into the RPGs yet (likely the first one will be Mario RPG).

#4 The greater functionality is a major step in gaming. Wii sports only gives a taste, and people love it. It's the main attraction of videogaming right now, being played by millions of people around the world in all of the major markets. There is so much more that can be done with game controls than ever before in console gaming; just read last years E3 stuff, or wait until the upcoming GDC to hear much more on this topic.

#5 Free Online connectivity. In two months already millions of people are using Wii online.


These are just a few of my opinions as to why the Wii is as popular as it is. It all falls down to the system being very appealing; Nintendo going around and demonstrating Wii Sports to hundreds of thousands of people all over the world was marketing genius. Wii Sports is a great game to demonstrate the system capabilities, and word of mouth has really passed around. Not to mention the press has been quite praising of the system; Wii Sports has even been called one of the best games of all time by Time Magazine.

For the record, ALL videogame systems are toys according to Department Store Catalogues (such a Sears).

[Flip]

A non-gaming magezine, Time, calls Wii Sports one of the best games of all time? Lol, that proves my point exactly. The Wii is made for non-gamers. Gamers may like it, too, but when a bazillion idiots who have never bought a console in years find this one so appealing it turns me off, hard to explain why i suppose. Take another hobby of mine, for example... motrocycling. Not that many people do it, it was hard to learn and is fun to do. I dont know why this is, but if everyone who has a car suddenly started riding, it wouldnt feel so special anymore... does that make any sense?

Oracle sais it right in his second paragraph. I love the epic games and since i usually only buy 3-4 a year nowadays a damn good game is what i want, not a mini-game frenzy. I think they only thing on Wii i would want to play is zelda, the rest is fluff made for gatherings. The epic games Oracle mentioned are FUN, not laugh at loud with friends fun, but serious fun... there is a big difference.

[Flip]

To help explain what i think when i say hardcore gaming, bad choice of words i agree, is this:

I dont want my random friend to be able to pick up Wii bowling, play a few games, then be able to whoop my ass. I like to play things like WC3, Tekken, or GoW that require fast thinking, reflexes, and hard to pull off combinations. Basically, games that require practice and/or strategy. That to me is true gaming because it is complex. When anyone can pick something right up and be competitive it feels like a toy. Half the fun is being good and developing the skill it takes to be even better.

Again, hard to explain as i am a poor linguist, but maybe that helps get some of the point across.

[Oracle]

Play Trauma Center for the Wii. You want a skill based game? That's the one for you, lol.

But honestly, I know where you are coming from. The games that you express frustration over (such as Wii sports) are more like board games. You can play Risk or Monopoly for 30 years and some kid will come along and beat your dice rolls.

[Zeus]

Yeah.... what do you mean by hardcore?

That's a bit of a debate. Most of us think of gamers as either being hardcore or casual with nothing in between. Casual gamers are those who like games and play them but they're not a huge important hobby to them. Hardcore gamers are those who go after the biggest baddest thing NOW and spend 20 hours a week playing.

I for instance lean towards hardcore but am too busy and have too many things to do to play games more than a few hours a week. There's gotta be a category for that.

What I refer to in my response to Flip is that Nintendo has clearly reached people who haven't had a system for a while since so many games leaned more towards hardcore than casual. With the DS they've done it in stride and it appears with the Wii they're making some little inroads as well. We'll see as time goes on whether or not it continues.

[Zeus]

Without sounding like a broken record (the Sony rep) i honestly feel the Wii is gimicky and not a true video game system, its more of a toy than anything. Call me a traditionalist i guess, i want to sit down and play my games on a console that is using everything our superior technology can do to make it look great. If the Wii was beefed up and cost 900 bucks i probably would buy it. I feel like i'm ripping myself off by buying a system with old technology and no hi-def hookups when it could be more.

Plus, i play most of my games by myself. Its a relaxer for me and i get absorbed in it much like i do a good book. The Wii is a party system, and suits that purpose very well.

No bias here, Flip, just experience.

I'm telling you, the system, despite its technological deficiencies compared to its competition, is just fun. That's what games are anyways, no? And once they get the browser up and running you'll see how much more you can do with it. Just try it

But, for what I can tell from your tastes, the 360 is the way to go. I just got an HD TV a couple days ago and set up Gears through the component cables. Man, it's nice, extremely nice. And there's tons of games for it, many cheap, so you'll have something to play

[Julius Seeker]

Flip: If Wii bowling is all you've played and the best example you can think of, then no wonder you have that opinion. There are many many better examples; lik Oracle said, Trauma Center. Wii baseball and Wii Tennis both require excellent timing and it is a battle of the wits since, as the pitcher, you have the ability to trick the batter. The faster you are, the more successful you will be at baseball. Similar thing can be said about Wii Tennis; Tennis definately has different skill levels; if there is someone who can beat me at Tennis, badly, then they will defeat me every single time. If someone is a bit better than me, they'll win most games, but not all. Most people I know I will defeat every single time, there is one person who will defeat me every time, and one person I know who will defeat me most of the time. Bowling, I don't lose, I always win against everyone I know. Though I did bowl my best game (269) while drunk =P

For the record, I do not think Tekken, Warcraft 3, or Gears of War require faster thinking or reflexes than Wii Tennis, boxing, or baseball; nor do they have any particularly complex button combinations. In fact, I think it is funny that you say that you like games that require fast reflexes nd quick thinking, because Wii is certainly the system that is offering the most in that category of any system at launch that I can think of. For button combos, there are games on the VC and upcoming games that will use the CC which will offer that. The vast majority of videogames do not use complex button combinations. I think every other person here prefered the Street Fighter series to Mortal Kombat; I recall a lot of people saying Mortal Kombat sucked. Mortal Kombat had advanced button combos, Street Fighter didn't.

On the point about not liking things that everyone else likes. I am not quite sure I unerstand that. Especially when you used hugely popular series like Warcraft and Tekken (well at last in the past it was) as games that you do like. Either way, did you like RPGs back in the NES days and stop liking them when they became popular during the SNES and PSX days?


Back to Wii Sports though:

Is there anyone else here who consistantly bowls above 200 besides me? =P

[Lox]

Back to Wii Sports though:

Is there anyone else here who consistantly bowls above 200 besides me? =P

I usually get around 190, though I do have a better game now and then and break 200. My best is only 214 though.

[Oracle]

I bowled a fucking 299 and lost it. Scared the shit out of my girlfriend, who was sleeping on the other couch, lol.

[Lox]

I bowled a fucking 299 and lost it. Scared the shit out of my girlfriend, who was sleeping on the other couch, lol.

Haha...that's awesome. I'm not sure whether I'd want a 299 though. To be THAT close to 300 and to not get it.

[Julius Seeker]

I bowled a fucking 299 and lost it. Scared the shit out of my girlfriend, who was sleeping on the other couch, lol.

Brother, you do NOT understand the headaches I am going to go through now to try and hit that score! =P

[Oracle]

I bowled a fucking 299 and lost it. Scared the shit out of my girlfriend, who was sleeping on the other couch, lol.

Brother, you do NOT understand the headaches I am going to go through now to try and hit that score! =P

Watch out for that #5 pin on the 10th frame, 3rd ball...... FUCK I HATE #5!!!

[Flip]

Flip: If Wii bowling is all you've played and the best example you can think of, then no wonder you have that opinion. There are many many better examples; lik Oracle said, Trauma Center. Wii baseball and Wii Tennis both require excellent timing and it is a battle of the wits since, as the pitcher, you have the ability to trick the batter. The faster you are, the more successful you will be at baseball. Similar thing can be said about Wii Tennis; Tennis definately has different skill levels; if there is someone who can beat me at Tennis, badly, then they will defeat me every single time. If someone is a bit better than me, they'll win most games, but not all. Most people I know I will defeat every single time, there is one person who will defeat me every time, and one person I know who will defeat me most of the time. Bowling, I don't lose, I always win against everyone I know. Though I did bowl my best game (269) while drunk =P

For the record, I do not think Tekken, Warcraft 3, or Gears of War require faster thinking or reflexes than Wii Tennis, boxing, or baseball; nor do they have any particularly complex button combinations. In fact, I think it is funny that you say that you like games that require fast reflexes nd quick thinking, because Wii is certainly the system that is offering the most in that category of any system at launch that I can think of. For button combos, there are games on the VC and upcoming games that will use the CC which will offer that. The vast majority of videogames do not use complex button combinations. I think every other person here prefered the Street Fighter series to Mortal Kombat; I recall a lot of people saying Mortal Kombat sucked. Mortal Kombat had advanced button combos, Street Fighter didn't.

On the point about not liking things that everyone else likes. I am not quite sure I unerstand that. Especially when you used hugely popular series like Warcraft and Tekken (well at last in the past it was) as games that you do like. Either way, did you like RPGs back in the NES days and stop liking them when they became popular during the SNES and PSX days?


Back to Wii Sports though:

Is there anyone else here who consistantly bowls above 200 besides me? =P

Wow, you didnt get anything i said, whatsoever. You compare popular games within gaming to my comparion of a popluar system withing a community of non-gamers. You again used VC as part of the Wii library when i said that doesnt even count. You think i only like reflex games when i said i like epic games and not mini-games. You think Street Fighters button combinations is similar to waving a controller around as far as simplicity... i have no place to begin, so i wont. Glad some people understood.

[Julius Seeker]

Wow, you didnt get anything i said, whatsoever. You compare popular games within gaming to my comparion of a popluar system withing a community of non-gamers. You again used VC as part of the Wii library when i said that doesnt even count. You think i only like reflex games when i said i like epic games and not mini-games. You think Street Fighters button combinations is similar to waving a controller around as far as simplicity... i have no place to begin, so i wont. Glad some people understood.

I got everything you said, but YOU are the one who doesn't know what YOU'RE talking about. You based an entire system around one part of one game, Wii Bowling; how ignorant is that?

#2 Whether or not you count the VC is irrelivant. The VC does count whether you want it to or not. It is in fact part of the console.

#3 There are no Wii games where all you do is wave around the controller.

#4 Only two current Wii games, out of dozens, can be categorized as a compilation of smaller games.

#4 Wii is the only system I can think of that has launched with an epic adventure game; with Twilight Princess. Metroid is not too far off.

#5 Street Fighter 2's most complex moves require a spinon the directional pad plus the tap of one button (such as the hurricane kick and fireball), this requires a less complex combo input than most Twilight Princess Sword techniques. When SSX Blur comes out next month, it will blow Street Fighter 2 away in terms of complex combinations.

#6 Wii games are popular with both gamers as well; the Shrine alone is proof enough of that, but then so are most videogame sites. The main reason is superior controls. Twilight Princess feels much smoother than previous Zelda titles; despight having a mlore complex battle system. I can't even imagine how they would fit everything into the Gamecube version considering Twilight Princess has different types of sword attacks assigned to the A buttons as well as each motion sensor. That doesn't even include the ease behind using weapon such as the bow and arrow and boomerang now; the shots and stuff are much more difficult now than in previous games, but can be done so much more easily due to the superior controls. Not to mention the praise that Mario Galaxy received at E3.

The main point of your argument is that gamers and hardcore gamers won't enjoy Wii, this is absolutely false. It wins all the polls on gaming websites and in multi-console gaming magazines (including Famitsu). Saying Wii was made for non-gamers is absolutely ridiculous, Wii was made to improve the control method of gaming; and the fact that it is expanding the market is proof of this. It's not the first time that Nintendo has done this, they also developed the traditional style controller which uses a directional pad and buttons, which ALSO expanded the market greatly, and is the basic design that controllers have been based off of up until this point.

[kali o.]

Wow, you didnt get anything i said, whatsoever. You compare popular games within gaming to my comparion of a popluar system withing a community of non-gamers. You again used VC as part of the Wii library when i said that doesnt even count. You think i only like reflex games when i said i like epic games and not mini-games. You think Street Fighters button combinations is similar to waving a controller around as far as simplicity... i have no place to begin, so i wont. Glad some people understood.

I *think* I get what you said (at least in terms of game taste). You want a meaty game rather than Elebits, Monkey Balls and Wariowares. If that's the case, I know exactly what you mean - I'd far rather play Mass Effects, White Knight Storys, Resident Evils, etc than the type of game Nintendo develops and encourages.

Other comments:

I'm quite sure Nintendo games are "fun"...games should be "fun". But they should also be entertaining and compelling and, personally, I don't find the current Wii-type games to be that.

I firmly believe Nintendo's game development process and direction is...bad...for the industry. It doesn't evolve gameplay, production or mainstream acceptance as an entertainment medium - instead it reinforces the idea that games are juvenile, shallow and a toy for the family. That whole concept turns me off - personally. The fact that other people may not have the same viewpoint as I, however, is perfectly fine...but I think my outlook is legitmate.

[Chris]

god forbid I'm agreeing with kali.

it's pretty much a matter of taste. I love my wii. in fact nothing entertains me more than swinging around my stick playing my wii. it's just fun. zelda is a work of pure genius but other than that the games range from decent to disgustingly fun. games like excite truck have no right to be as fun as they are. So yeah in my mind it's a fantastic game system and I'm loving every game I've played on it.....which isn't that many. my xbox I also love the crap out of. Gears of War I find disgustingly awesome. It's like Kill switch without the whole sucking balls aspect....Marvel Ultimate Aliance is a great an freaking beautiful game....plus I get to use moon night and moony is freaking awesome. all in all I'm getting exactly what I want from both systems. I really am. Both are plugged in an equal amount but right now it's my ps2 and the fantastic rogue galaxy sucking my life away.....good god these guys are geniuses...dark cloud 2 etc....I luveses it

[Julius Seeker]

I firmly believe Nintendo's game development process and direction is...bad...for the industry. It doesn't evolve gameplay, production or mainstream acceptance as an entertainment medium - instead it reinforces the idea that games are juvenile, shallow and a toy for the family. That whole concept turns me off - personally. The fact that other people may not have the same viewpoint as I, however, is perfectly fine...but I think my outlook is legitmate.

I have NO idea where you are getting those crazy beliefs from dude =P

If the DS is any indication of how the Wii is going to evolve, software wise, you are WAY off.

So here's the question that begs to be answered, do you feel the DS is bad for the industry? If so, explain your reasoning.

[kali o.]

I have NO idea where you are getting those crazy beliefs from dude =P

If the DS is any indication of how the Wii is going to evolve, software wise, you are WAY off.

So here's the question that begs to be answered, do you feel the DS is bad for the industry? If so, explain your reasoning.

Handhelds are an entirely different market...I know that but I don't expect to convince you one is not indicative of the other. Handheld games, as a function of limiting tech, screensize and play setting results in a different type of experience and expectation. The DS success (which is more of a phenomonon in Japan than here) is great...but don't lie to yourself - some Nintendo philosophy and the inclusion of the dual-screen play a very small role.

Great game support is a big reason - but a bigger reason is that intangible, nearly impossible to reproduce cultural and social occurance that cause products like tickle me Elmo and iPod to shoot to ridiculous heights.

My little sister begged me to get her a DS on her last birthday - I did. She is not a gamer, unless you consider downloading trials of flash-type games "a gamer". She played Nintendogs for a couple weeks, and I haven't seen her touch it since. She almost has no knowledge of the Wii and certainly doesn't want one. *shrug*

Wii doesn't equal DS. I won't change your mind but I'll at least offer you the following:

- compare historic data for Nintendo console to handheld ratios.
- best selling console titles compared to best-selling handheld titles shows a difference in preferred titles
- dual-screen does not equal wiimote in any fashion

At least I know if I asked you to prove your statements, you have no relevant or factual data to give me besides wild extrapolation and exaggerated leaps of logic. *shrug*

[Julius Seeker]

Handhelds are an entirely different market...I know that but I don't expect to convince you one is not indicative of the other. Handheld games, as a function of limiting tech, screensize and play setting results in a different type of experience and expectation. The DS success (which is more of a phenomonon in Japan than here) is great...but don't lie to yourself - some Nintendo philosophy and the inclusion of the dual-screen play a very small role.

Great game support is a big reason - but a bigger reason is that intangible, nearly impossible to reproduce cultural and social occurance that cause products like tickle me Elmo and iPod to shoot to ridiculous heights.

My little sister begged me to get her a DS on her last birthday - I did. She is not a gamer, unless you consider downloading trials of flash-type games "a gamer". She played Nintendogs for a couple weeks, and I haven't seen her touch it since. She almost has no knowledge of the Wii and certainly doesn't want one. *shrug*

Wii doesn't equal DS. I won't change your mind but I'll at least offer you the following:

- compare historic data for Nintendo console to handheld ratios.
- best selling console titles compared to best-selling handheld titles shows a difference in preferred titles
- dual-screen does not equal wiimote in any fashion

At least I know if I asked you to prove your statements, you have no relevant or factual data to give me besides wild extrapolation and exaggerated leaps of logic. *shrug*

You didn't mention the touch screen at all, do you think that the dual screen is somehow closer to the control scheme of a point and click controller than a touch screen? Or did you not know about the touch screen?

Also, most games utilize the touch screen for ease of control; there are some games which give the option (but the touch screen obviously makes things much easier; like Phoenix Wright, except for the parts where it is integral), and very few games that do not utilize it (side scrolling action titles are the only ones I can think of which do not use it).

The DS offers more options for control than any previous handheld. As for what is popular on handhelds, it is easy to see that DS certainly has a lot of different types of games that are popular.

You didn't answer my question which was, is DS bad for the industry? Even though you see it as a different industry, they contain very similar titles, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest (the man series was removed from a home console and brought to DS), Mario, Metroid, Resident Evil, etc...

Well, is DS bad for the industry? If the answer is yes, explain why that is, if the answer is no; then your explanation above will do, and I will have a reply for that. The handheld and home console market may be different, but only partially different, both home console and handhelds are videogames. So, as handhelds being a component of the videogame industry, do you think they ae good or bad for the industry?

[Blotus]

#5 Street Fighter 2's most complex moves require a spinon the directional pad plus the tap of one button (such as the hurricane kick and fireball), this requires a less complex combo input than most Twilight Princess Sword techniques. When SSX Blur comes out next month, it will blow Street Fighter 2 away in terms of complex combinations.

Street Fighter 2 is from 1991. It's not nearly as complex as Street Fighter 3 has become up to Third Strike. So saying SSX's button "combinations" are more complex than those of SF2 is ridiculous.

[kali o.]

You didn't mention the touch screen at all, do you think that the dual screen is somehow closer to the control scheme of a point and click controller than a touch screen? Or did you not know about the touch screen?

Also, most games utilize the touch screen for ease of control; there are some games which give the option (but the touch screen obviously makes things much easier; like Phoenix Wright, except for the parts where it is integral), and very few games that do not utilize it (side scrolling action titles are the only ones I can think of which do not use it).

The DS offers more options for control than any previous handheld. As for what is popular on handhelds, it is easy to see that DS certainly has a lot of different types of games that are popular.

You didn't answer my question which was, is DS bad for the industry? Even though you see it as a different industry, they contain very similar titles, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest (the man series was removed from a home console and brought to DS), Mario, Metroid, Resident Evil, etc...

Well, is DS bad for the industry? If the answer is yes, explain why that is, if the answer is no; then your explanation above will do, and I will have a reply for that. The handheld and home console market may be different, but only partially different, both home console and handhelds are videogames. So, as handhelds being a component of the videogame industry, do you think they ae good or bad for the industry?

To answer the question you put forth, no I don't think the DS is "bad" for it's industry - but I also think the PSP did a better job of brining in "non-gamers" with it's movie playback functionality (too bad Sony fucked it up). Moreso, I feel Nintendo's time of domination in handhelds is under threat - as cells, PDAs and other portable devices make inroads into that particular niche...I don't think Nintendo can avoid an onslaught of technology and competitors offering more functionality (all purely future speculation mind you - however likely).

Keep those things in mind with when you reply....and please make it good, well-thought out and interesting. For the love of god, please...!

[Julius Seeker]

It is true that the PSP brought in non-gamers, but many didn't buy the PSP for games. Games are not selling very well on the PSP. Though the DS most likely did a much better job bringing non-gamers into the gaming industry. PDAs and Ipods are growing in popularity, but so are handheld gaming systems; between the PSP and the DS, handheld gaming systems have sold MUCH faster, in the past two years, than any other videogame force in history (taking any two years); handheld gaming systems (including GBA, DS, and PSP) sold 75 million+ units in the past two years.

You bring up a good point that developer support was a major reason for the DS success. Afterall, the developers are the ones who make the games. The touch screen and dual screens were available to use on the DS, they were used to imrpove the quality of the games developed. Why do you think this won't be done on the Wii as well?

Zelda sells approximately 3 copies for every 4 Wii's sold, Yet if Wii is a system built for non-gamers, then why is Zelda (a game developed for gamers) selling so incredibly well?

Considering Zelda's success, why would you say Nintendo encourages only games like Warioware and Monkey ball? Do you not think that companies will want to duplicate that kind of success with epic titles (such as RPGs and adventures) considering there is obviously a market there for them?

As for expanding the industry to non gamers, Microsoft's Peter Moore is probably pleased with the Wii for expanding that market, because the Xbox 360's sales will ultimately benefit from that expansion. Xbox 360 offers superior graphics, and that is going to be an attractive feature to this expanding market. Unlike the PSP though, games sell on the 360 =P

Funny thing, like the PSP, games aren't really selling on the PS3. Perhaps it is because, like the PSP, people bought it as a movie player.

[kali o.]

It is true that the PSP brought in non-gamers, but many didn't buy the PSP for games. Games are not selling very well on the PSP. Though the DS most likely did a much better job bringing non-gamers into the gaming industry. PDAs and Ipods are growing in popularity, but so are handheld gaming systems; between the PSP and the DS, handheld gaming systems have sold MUCH faster, in the past two years, than any other videogame force in history (taking any two years); handheld gaming systems (including GBA, DS, and PSP) sold 75 million+ units in the past two years.

You bring up a good point that developer support was a major reason for the DS success. Afterall, the developers are the ones who make the games. The touch screen and dual screens were available to use on the DS, they were used to imrpove the quality of the games developed. Why do you think this won't be done on the Wii as well?

Zelda sells approximately 3 copies for every 4 Wii's sold, Yet if Wii is a system built for non-gamers, then why is Zelda (a game developed for gamers) selling so incredibly well?

Considering Zelda's success, why would you say Nintendo encourages only games like Warioware and Monkey ball? Do you not think that companies will want to duplicate that kind of success with epic titles (such as RPGs and adventures) considering there is obviously a market there for them?

As for expanding the industry to non gamers, Microsoft's Peter Moore is probably pleased with the Wii for expanding that market, because the Xbox 360's sales will ultimately benefit from that expansion.

Sheesh...you didn't give me any content on-topic to reply to (for the question you asked me to address)...*sigh*. I'll reply by paragraph and then leave this back and forth behind me.

You are pointing out a flaw in the PSPs business plan (which I may or may not agree - I have more issue with Sony's inept handling of UMDs). As for DS sales, I believe GBoy incarnations have sold more than the DS as of today - I'm to lazy to check so feel free to correct me. Either way, not sure what your point was.

IYO - frankly, I don't believe you could honestly tell me the majority of the games would have been measurably impacted by the removal of one or the other (or both) of the DS functions. You can try to claim it would, of course, but I'd believe that to be highly opinionated, speculatory and bias.

Because as I already said, Nintendo's fanbase alone with the addition of, I'm sure, a number of other gamers interested in the new input device, guaruntees the Wii sellout -- where the hell are you getting "non-gamers" from besides simply trying to insert it as an already supported fact. SHOW ME. As for Zelda, once again throwing out the silly inclusion of "non-gamers" you tried to slip in, it's selling so well because a) It's Zelda and b) It the only real AAA game available (similar to how the PS3 has Resistence and Xbox had Halo). Seems ridiculously straightforward to me...not you?

Nintendo encourages maximum profit with minimal investment - you can see this in EVERY game they produce. Obviously, there is a fanbase for this type of game...these are the primary purchasers of Nintendo systems and 3rd party developers know this. If the wiimote functionality and current available games are any indication, the Wii will do nothing to break this cycle.

Expanded to who? Give me some FACTS, data or anything even remotely substantial and reasonable - if nothing else then even on a theoritical level. You simply blurting out random, unsupported statements doesn't make for a compelling arguement.

---------------------

EDIT - You included the PSP edit after the fact, but I'd say that's a really weak comparison you are making (though at least feasible). I think a fairer observation and theory would be:

The high cost of a retail PS3 has alienated the consumer - just like I said it would. Likewise, developers are faced with longer development times and higher production costs. Since the launch, press and product install base was/is fairly disappointing, developers (who are absorbing more risk this gen) are forced to release their projects to low potential sales forecasts or delay, port or shift existing resources. This results in less games (especially big name) being made available and thus less games being purchased.

Sony has put themselves in the position that the ONLY way the PS3 can succeed now (barring massive price cutting) is for HDTVs [then] BluRay to become this years "iPod"...and even if that happens, it does little to bring in the majority of Sony's gamer consumer base. I firmly do not believe any amount of game support can help Sony at this point.

All this helps Nintendo...or MS. We'll see. All I know is that if Wii enjoys massive success this gen and overtakes the 360, it will owe more to Sony's blunder than the wiimote, some vague Nintendo-philosphy or fictional "non-gamers" eating up the system.

But once again, this point/observation you made had nothing to do with the topic you suggested you wanted to address. I've had to go further off-topic to address it. As such, I won't be putting in any further effort to reply your posts seriously and with thought

[Flip]

I think i've said all i can on this topic. The Wii is a totally different animal. It is fun, yes, but whimsical fun, not video game fun. It isnt the same. I think recently about FF12, i just had a nice 3 hour session. Did i crack a smile? Did i laugh out loud? Did i josh with my friends? I did none of these and yet was entertained for three freaking hours because the game itself rocked and i was in total control of everything without having to flail around like a moron to achieve it.

[Julius Seeker]

I think i've said all i can on this topic. The Wii is a totally different animal. It is fun, yes, but whimsical fun, not video game fun. It isnt the same. I think recently about FF12, i just had a nice 3 hour session. Did i crack a smile? Did i laugh out loud? Did i josh with my friends? I did none of these and yet was entertained for three freaking hours because the game itself rocked and i was in total control of everything without having to flail around like a moron to achieve it.

You're NOT supposed to "flail around like a moron" using the Wii remote. What are you retarded? =P

Funny you should mention FF12 though, the key developer, Yasumi Matsuno, has is next project for the Nintendo Wii. http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/topics/wi ... rview.html He discusses Wii development in this video along with other developers (he's the one in the light blue about 3/5ths through the video in case you don't know Japanese). Not to mention, Zelda launched with the Wii, that is an epic game on the same level as FF12; both of which are higher than the vast majority of games. So it is not as though there will not be any epics on the Wii.

[Julius Seeker]

And Kali: The point of my last post was calling you on your misdirecting "beliefs and opinions" about the Wii.

I brought up the PSP because you brought it up first. Wasn't that obvious? You said that the PSP did a better job of attracting non-gamers; only failed to mention that the PSP isn't exactly a system which games sell on; not a whole lot of software has moved on the PSP. Just so there is no confusion between attracting to non-gamers and attracting to non-gamers and expanding the market.

As far as evidence of expansion in the market, yes the GBA sells well, it continues to sell well; though, the DS is selling faster. Though what is of interest is the software sales, the GBA never had software sales like the DS has had. If the market was not expanding, the DS would not have that much software up in the charts, it would see similar success to the GBA or less; not great improvement.

You also made a point about Wii selling mainly to Nintendo fans, if that were the case, why did Gamecube not see nearly this success? The Gamecube did not have these so called "Nintendo fans" waiting in line every morning for months. That is, unless, Nintendo expanded their fanbase considerably with the DS (because Gamecube never saw massive success). I think the DS theory is possible, observing DS owners (and I do know a lot, they are all interested in the Wii, but before DS they were interested in the PSX and PS2; or not into games at all.

Just to close this point: you did make a mention of non-gamers above, for what other purpose would you make a mention of little sister without going with it anywhere else? Why also mention the PSP's purchase by non-gamers? We were in discussion as to whether the Wii is good for the gaming industry or not; we have foresight on the handheld industry which is not the same as the home console industry, but similar enough.

As for convincing you of the impact of the touch screen, I guess you'll have to play some of the games for yourself. It is similar to the Wii point and click concept, except you tap the screen instead. Though unlike the Wii, games which require aiming need the dual screen because with the wii remote, you are back far enough that you can see the screen, with the stylus on the touch screen, the view is impeded upon, that is why shooting games use the touch screen use the dual screen function; the bottom screen for aiming, the top screen for viewing. Any game with extensive menu selection (like Phoenix Wright, and most any RPG), it speeds things up considerably. They offer the option of using the buttons, but there is obviously quite a difference in the feeling; the game pace feels more sluggish and less natural. Another major improvement is writing; it is MUCH easier to do this now with the Wii remote and DS touch screen than it was before those developments.

As for maximum profit for minimal investment being seen in every game they produce. Yes, I am sure that is the case with extensive games such as Metroid Prime, Zelda, Mario Galaxy; three of their most well known series'. Nintendo making a profit of a billion+ while SCE and Microsoft are losing hundreds of millions? I do not see how this can be seen negatively. I recall earlier your position was that Nintendo was going to go out of business, and you wanted them developing for Xbox.

As for your analysis of the PS3; I do not disagree with it. It is part of the story, and like you, I said the same thing; everyone here at the Shrine (except delusional Flip; and Zeus pretending not to be a Nintendo fan) said the same thing.

As for whether or not Wii is bad for the industry; it is obvious it is not. People enjoy playing the games on it (as they do with DS), people are entertained by the system (as they are with DS). It might not have the resolution capabilities that the Xbox 360 has, but PC's have always been way ahead of gaming consoles in that department; the existance of gaming consoles have never been seen as bad for the gaming industry. Graphics are really the only thing that Xbox 360 hardware has over Wii hardware (and a larger internal drive); which is something that is important to gamers as well. What the Wii has done is that it has added a device which points and clicks; similar to a mouse on a PC. Only a mouse doesn't really work with a gaming console.

Everyone who plays games has to start somewhere, if a game has easy of control, then it will be easier to get someone inexperienced with games to play. Look how much the NES expanded the industry with a four-directional pad plus two action button controller; this from its previous position of keyboards and joysticks. Why did this expansion occur? Because the ease of play increased. The Wii lowers that threshold further, things are even more natural now than they were before. This is NOT bad for the industry, just as the NES controller was not bad for the industry.

Wait until GDC (this is its 20th anniversary), professionals and experts will describe the situation much better than I can. It's a month away

[Torgo]

I firmly believe Nintendo's game development process and direction is...bad...for the industry. It doesn't evolve gameplay, production or mainstream acceptance as an entertainment medium - instead it reinforces the idea that games are juvenile, shallow and a toy for the family.

Is this necessarily a bad thing, though? I'm all for variety. I think there's room enough for both juvenile games and big epics, as well as everything in between. I like the direction Nintendo's taking because it shows how versatile the medium can be. The Wii's a great multiplayer console, but it's also good for a quick fix. I'll bowl a game or two just before I leave the house, or while I wait for the oven to preheat. But I still love a good long, involving game. The only reason I haven't gotten too far in Zelda TP is because I haven't finished FFXII yet.

Is there anyone else here who consistantly bowls above 200 besides me? =P

I average around 220 or so. My score is usually around 1400, with occasional dips and spikes. With either hand.

[Zeus]

I firmly believe Nintendo's game development process and direction is...bad...for the industry. It doesn't evolve gameplay, production or mainstream acceptance as an entertainment medium - instead it reinforces the idea that games are juvenile, shallow and a toy for the family.

See, this is where I think you have to step outside of your own personal feelings/preferences and look at the industry as a whole. Let's start with Japan since a) it's more of a mature industry there and b) it affects every big publisher the most aside from Microsoft (it's a struggle, Lotus, but I try). Although a lot of the Japanese companies - the ones who really run this industry - have finally started to not focus on Japan entirely, it's still most important to them. They also have very precise and readily available tracking in terms of sales which makes it so much easier to actually analyze.

In Japan, the games industry has actually seen a decline in the last few years. The companies have been trying to figure out why. They talk about it all the time in articles and have been for years. That's where I get this from, not hard figures. That's a big research project I'm not willing to do right now. You'll have to trust me that I've read and remembered these articles.

One of the main issues is they're seeing a lot of people actually being turned off of games who used to play them in the past or a lot of new people not picking up games as a hobby. So, although the overall revenue is increasing, it's decreasing in terms of proportion to the population. Factor in the increase in price of games from the PSX-N64 days to the following generation and you find that the actual number of units sold hasn't gone up that much (Europe and North America have seen the growth, but they are less mature industries, particularly Europe which first saw wide release of gaming systems with the PSX). The rate of population increase is outpacing the rate of userbase increase, this isn't good for the industry.

It's not that much different in North America. Look at how many people used to play games with the SNES and NES but got turned off when the PSX-N64 came out. Those systems (both of them) were great for us gamers but it wasn't so much so for a lot of the "casual" gamers. They were too complicated. I can attest to this as I saw a lot of it when I owned my store. There's a reason older people (older than the average gamer age of 31) flock to retro releases, they understand them. Yes, there's nostalgia, but you're talking about a simple game with a simple goal and simple controls. This is what they want, not GRAW which uses upwards of 20+ different button combos. That's too complicated even for me and I have a huge amount of gaming experience.

The thing is, these people represent a HUGE portion of the population of potential or ex-gamers. I remember an analogy by one of the developers where if you take a dart board, the bullseye (green and red parts) would represent us, the "hardcore" gamers whereas the rest are the casual gamers. The definition of "casual gamer" I'm using is someone who doesn't play that much during the week - maybe a few hours - and isn't that "into" games. It's a nice distraction but not the main focal point of their entertainment dollar.

Before the Wii and the DS, the companies were only really catering to the current gamers (Nintendo included) and weren't focusing much on the other potential or ex-gamers. So the vast majority of the growth was to those people and their increase in numbers and to the PC people that Microsoft was able to bring in (that's their major competitive advantage, being able to lure in the PC gamer who'd only played Goldeneye on consoles in the last 15 years).

Nintendo, after getting a thorough butt-whuppin' in the last generation decided to change focus. They decided to test this theory and see if they can lure in some of those gamers. You know the games (the "Touch Generation" ones) so I won't go over them. But the evidence is clear: it's worked very well, probably better than what Nintendo could have hoped. This isn't fanboy stuff, it's fact. It's true in both Japan and North America and I've seen it myself quite a bit. This is what they're hoping to get with the Wii and what Microsoft is actually attempting a bit with the XBLA. Those games are perfect for the casual gamer as they're basically NES and SNES level games with 3D and often HD graphics. But their system appeals to the hardcore and PC gamer so it's more of a minimal effect.

So, overall, Nintendo's approach is actually very good for the industry. All of a sudden there's people interested in games who weren't in the past or haven't been for years. Again, this is fact. If I could get my father-in-law, a hard-nosed ex-military cop who thinks video games are garbage to play the Wii for two hours and enjoy it, it's proof IMO (that's on top of the rest of the empirical evidence that's out there). I go to two games stores (one local, one EB ) every Saturday to shop and visit friends and they both tell me that the ratio of calls about the Wii vs PS3 is no less than 10 to 1. Heck, the controllers for the Wii are as hard to find as the system. And this is the machine that appeals to the casual gamer with it's "simple and juvenile" games. How is this bad? The vast majority of games are still made for us hardcore people but now we have more variety since there's more people playing. This is a bad thing? You have more variety rather than less.

You think the companies are going to ignore the hardcore, the people who drive the industry? Even though they only represent about 20% of the gaming population they spend far more of their expendable income on games so their proportion in terms of overall sales is much higher. You'll be well taken care of, don't worry about that. That'll never change. Just now you'll have more games to choose from including games that you can just put in and play for half an hour. You never know, you may actually get into some of these "shallow or juvenile" games.

And the industry's survived quite well and grown quite well even with all the shit that's been thrown at it from society (and there's been A LOT and continues to be an exorbitant amount, look at Hot Coffee), these games aren't going to make things any worse. Instead, it'll likely have a reverse effect and make things better since it'll show people that games aren't just all about violence and sex and melting your child's mind.

Now there's a school district in Illinois I believe which is putting DDR into schools to try and increase physical fitness. And that's one of the prime games not made by Nintendo that appeals to non-gamers (also explains why there' so hard to find used) and is relatively "juvenile". All you're doing is pressing down on floor mat in one of 4 directions based on the simple-to-follow instructions on the screen. This is bad for the industry?

You can't just look at yourself and say "if it's bad for me, it's bad for the industry".

[Lox]

Well, my new average is around 240. Woohoo! I finally got into a consistent rhythm with bowling. I can now easily score a 240 each game. My high score so far is a 274. I can't wait to play my friends this Thursday. I haven't told them about my newfound skill.

[Julius Seeker]

Japanese hardware sales today. I am not entirely sure what the deal was with the DS in the first part of January selling much lower than usual, but it seems that it bounced back up this week. I am thinking that it is likely due to post-holiday season shortages like last year when numbers took a major spill in mid-January (from like 600,000 in the second week of January to 40,000 in the third week, and the back up to ~200K within a month for the rest of the year). Wii seems to have kept up the steam, while PS3 has continued to slip down very low: and there is no shortage, there are at least 400,000 PS3 units sitting in warehouses and on shelves in Japan (Sony stated they shipped a million units by December 31st 2006).

January 22 - 28, 2007
DSL - 194,526
Wii - 83,754
PSP - 35,700
PS2 - 20,995
PS3 - 19,996
X360 - 7,365
GBM - 1,177
GBASP - 1,023
GameCube - 347
DS - 82
GBA - 34


Sales for the month courtousy of IGN:

1. Dragon Quest Monsters Joker (DS, Square Enix): 402,992
2. Pokemon Diamond & Pearl (DS, Pokemon): 370,832
3. Wii Sports (Wii, Nintendo): 355,243
4. Wii Play (Wii, Nintendo): 283,758
5. New Super Mario Brothers (DS, Nintendo): 229,797
6. Grand Theft Auto San Andreas (PS2, Capcom): 209,974
7. Brain Age 2 (DS, Nintendo): 208,875
8. Common Knowledge Trainer (DS, Nintendo): 203,206
9. Animal Crossing (DS, Nintendo): 181,869
10. Kirby Squeak Squad (DS, Nintendo): 155,997

DS: 700,000
Wii: 405,000
PSP: 230,000
PS3: 148,000
PS2: 111,000
360: 40,000

North American numbers should pop up soon, European numbers probably not until April sometime.

[Julius Seeker]

Wii continues to sell well, it was the top selling system for January in the US selling 436,000 units, followed by the PS2 selling 299,000 units. The DS has fallen down below selling only 239,000 units; this might be due to shortages, it appears that in Japan the same problem occured, and it picked right up in February; it also might be due to falling interest for handheld systems during this time of year. Wii sold 977K pieces of software for the month, in the US.


North American game sales are interesting, Zelda and Wario are both leading the thousand selling a couple hundred thousand copies each in January. Rayman has overtaken Red Steel as the number 1 Ubisoft game on the Wii, Rayman has sold 265,000 units and Red Steel is at 260,000 units. The Wii version of Madden comes up with 236,000 units.

IGN also made note that the console continues to get a lot of hype in adult media: Conan Obrien recently dedicated an entire segment of his show to the machine.


In Japan, DS recovered, seems the fall in sales was about shortages:

Here are the latest Japanese console hardware sales for the week of Feb 5 - 11, 2007:

NDS Lite - 201,177 [1,103,588] units
Wii - 78,550 [603,378] units
PSP - 32,175 [303,113] units
PlayStation 3 - 23,431 [178,734] units
PlayStation 2 - 16,033 [149,437] units
Xbox 360 - 4,811 [52,617] units
GBA SP - 980 [8,136] units
GB Micro - 884 [10,245] units
GameCube - 383 [3,459] units
NDS - 121 [561] units
GBA - 36 [328] units
- Here are the latest Japanese console software sales for the week of Feb 5 - 11, 2007:

Virtua Fighter 5 (PS3, Sega) - 48,346 units
Wii Sports (Wii, Nintendo) - 45,897 [1,004,555] units
Hajimete no Wii [Wii Play] (Wii, Nintendo) - 36,090 [879,432] units
Kawashima Ryuuta Kyouju Kanshuu: Motto Nouwo Kitaeru Otona no DS Training (NDS, Nintendo) - 32,800 [3,963,712] units
New Super Mario Bros. (NDS, Nintendo) - 29,026 [4,118,078] units
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (PS2, Capcom) - 27,519 [304,113] units
Kaitou Wario the Seven (NDS, Nintendo) - 26,815 [185,695] units
Bokujou Monogatari: Kimi to Sodatsu Shima (NDS, Marvelous) - 26,804 [106,212] units
Luminous Arc (NDS, Marvelous) - 25,676 units
J-League Pro Soccer Club o Tsukurou 5 (PS2, Sega) - 24,468 [131,541] units

So that's a confirmed 1 million+ units so far this year between US and Japan. Not a bad showing for a slow season.

[Julius Seeker]

There's an article in The Financial Times which discusses the change in the outlook on the success of the Wii console. They state that Wii will maintain supremacy through this generation, and that it is expected that the console will be in one third of all households in Japan and North America by 2011.

Currently totals known to date from Japan and the US are 1,039K against 422K PS3's and 348K Xbox 360's. So considerably more than both other systems combined.

[Julius Seeker]

Here's NPD's US numbers:

February 2007
DS = 485,000
Wii = 335,000
PS2 = 295,000
360 = 228,000
PSP = 176,000
GBA = 136,000
PS3 = 127,000
GCN = 24,000

Japan:
February 2007
NDS - 586,000
Wii - 279,000
PSP - 233,000
PS3 - 107,000
PS2 - 63,000
360 - 18,000
GBA - 7,300
GCN - 1,400


Here is Canada's numbers from gamespot:

Janueary:
Wii 34,000
PS2 27,000
PS3 6,800
360 14,400

February:
Wii - 28,556
PS2 - 23,191
DS - 22,870
360 - 12,390
PSP - 9,311
PS3 - 6,084

US software numbers:

1. 360 Crackdown – 427,000
2. Wii Play – 371,000
3. NDS Diddy Kong Racing – 262,000
4. Wii Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess – 130,000
5. PS2 Guitar Hero 2 – 130,000
6. 360 Gears of War – 119,000
7. 360 Major League Baseball 2K7 – 113,000
8. 360 Lost Planet – 111,000
9. Wii WarioWare: Smooth Moves – 109,000
10. 360 NBA Street Homecourt – 102,000


Twilight Princess sales have passed the 3 million mark worldwide on Wii, nearing 4.5 million with Gamecube numbers included.

Haven't seen Euro hardware numbers since 700K that were sold at the European launch last year.

[Eric]

I wonder if the PsP's improved success has anything to do with the $5 movies lol.

[Zeus]

Here's a site for VG charts, which is trying to be a comprehensive sales numbers site worldwide

http://www.vgcharts.org/welcome.php

Not sure if anyone (Seek) has posted a link to this site before, but in my old age, I don't recall it, so here it is for everyone.

[Julius Seeker]

I am a bit wary about VG charts, their numbers are not accurate to what more reliable sources say. VG charts currently has the numbers about accurate to what other sources have released except the "Amercas" sales are at 2.7M putting the console at almost 7 million sales; this might be true by this point, but there is no solid data to confirm it. They are usually close, but their numbers are estimates rather than actrual sales data. Anyway, we have numbers for Europe and Japan up to the end of the Fiscal year, and in the US until the end of February. Nintendo exceeded their expectations:

US sales 2,083,880+ March sales
Japan 2,014,310
Europe 2,000,000
Canada 180K
Australia: 86K

I am sure what sales are in other countries where the system was released such as Singapore, Bermuda, etc... I don't think it will make an impact on the total sales regardless. I am also unsure if NPD numbers also include Canada or not, so 150K of that 180K might be included in the NPD number.

Nintendo's plan is to ship a total of 16 million consoles this fiscal year for a total of 22 million consoles.

The market value of Nintendo has been rising rapidly in the past couple of years: just over a month ago was 33.5 billion USD
http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/29248

Though there has been a major jump since that point: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... ofHC9m.lX8

EDIT:

Tack on 259K to the US numbers. 6.5 million is what Perrin Kaplan said Nintendo shipped before the end of the fiscal year, and it seems that is what has sold.




Official numbers:


GameBoy Advance
Hardware - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 4.34 millions Japan - 0.11 million
North America - 3.0 millions
Europe - 1.22 millions

Hardware - Life-to-date
Total: 79.46 millions Japan - 16.6 millions
North America - 41.1 millions
Europe - 21.71 millions

Software - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 38.53 millions Japan - 2.55 millions
North America - 25.99 millions
Europe - 9.99 millions

Software - Life-to-date
Total: 366.25 millions Japan - 72.36 millions
North America - 208.57 millions
Europe - 85.32 millions

Nintendo DS
Hardware - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 23.56 millions Japan - 9.12 millions
North America - 6.63 millions
Europe - 7.81 millions

Hardware - Life-to-date
Total: 40.29 millions Japan - 16.02 millions
North America - 11.74 millions
Europe - 12.52 millions

Software - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 123.55 millions Japan - 49.77 millions
North America - 37.20 millions
Europe - 36.58 millions

Software - Life-to-date
Total: 183.98 millions Japan - 75.11 millions
North America - 58.03 millions
Europe - 50.85 millions

GameCube
Hardware - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 730,000 Japan - 20,000
North America - 630,000
Europe - 80,000

Hardware - Life-to-date
Total: 21.59 millions Japan - 4.02 millions
North America - 12.81 millions
Europe - 4.76 millions

Software - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 16.80 millions Japan - 440,000
North America - 14.48 millions
Europe - 1.88 millions

Software - Life-to-date
Total: 205.88 millions Japan - 27.41 millions
North America - 136.13 millions
Europe - 42.34 millions

Wii
Hardware - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 5.84 millions Japan - 2.00 millions
North America - 2.37 millions
Europe - 1.47 millions

Software - Apr 06 - Mar 07
Total: 28.84 millions Japan - 6.12 millions
North America - 14.49 millions
Europe - 8.23 millions

[Julius Seeker]

Alright April sales are rolling in. Kutaragi already took the fall on this one if you were thinking "someone at Sony is going to get fired" As for two weeks in a row only DS and Wii were represented in the top 10 on the Japanese market, in fact, there were no PS3 games in the top 30, but two Xbox 360 games (Test Drive and Rainbow Six) managed to crack the top 30 (which is something considering it's Japan). The highest game by Sony on the charts was during the April 23-29th week, and it was a PSP game which ranked 17th. The Wii seems to have picked up in production now by a good 25-30%, which is a good thing, perhaps by this time next year it will be exceeding DS sales regularly. DS seems to be on track to outsell PS2's 25 million by the end of this year on the Japanese market.

It will be interesting to see if Wii actually does beat Xbox 360 to the 10 million worldwide mark, the Wii is currently around 7.2 million (I'm estimating based on March numbers, there is no official number for this time), and the Xbox 360 at 9.6 million.


JAPAN:

For the last two weeks:

April 23 - 29, 2007
DSL - 255,971
Wii - 102,522
PSP - 33,860
PS3 - 12,791
PS2 - 12,584
X360 - 3,162

1. 274,004 - Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings (DS)
2. 78,980 - Momotaro Dentetsu DS Tokyo & Japan (DS)
3. 75,839 - Super Paper Mario (Wii)
4. 58,026 - Wii Sports (Wii)
5. 42,259 - Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree (Wii)
6. 41,784 - Wii Play (Wii)
7. 40,003 - One Piece: Unlimited Adventure (Wii)
8. 37,115 - Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis (DS)
9. 35,052 - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney 4 (DS)
10. 34,583 - Planet Puzzle League (DS)




April 30 - May 6, 2007
DSL - 285,123
Wii - 101,320
PSP - 35,172
PS2 - 14,815
PS3 - 12,974
X360 - 3,205

1) Final Fantasy XII Revenant Wings (NDS, Square Enix) - 109,326 [383,330] units
2) Super Paper Mario (Wii, Nintendo) - 90,151 [310,182] units
3) Wii Sports (Wii, Nintendo) - 84,782 [1,543,596] units
4) Yoshi's Island DS (NDS, Nintendo) - 58,948 [791,132] units
5) Hajimete no Wii [Wii Play] (Wii, Nintendo) - 58,781 [1,279,131] units
6) Mario vs Donkey Kong 2: MiniMini Daikoushin! (NDS, Nintendo) - 57,741 [233,477] units
7) Wii de Yawaraka Atama Juku [Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree] (Wii, Nintendo) - 55,165 [97,424] units
New Super Mario Bros. (NDS, Nintendo) - 51,681 [4,419,592] units
9) Momotarou Dentetsu DS: Tokyo & Japan (NDS, Hudson) - 45,662 [124,642] units
10) Kawashima Ryuuta Kyouju Kanshuu: Motto Nouo Kitaeru Otona DS Training (NDS, Nintendo) - 44,047 [4,238,185] units

[Zeus]

You are, of course, referring to Japanese sales only. It's not even the biggest market anymore

[Julius Seeker]

You are, of course, referring to Japanese sales only. It's not even the biggest market anymore

I am talking about the world market in the second paragraph. These stats are all Japanese (I forgot to specify which markets I was talking about, but I'll fix that).

Even though Japan isn't the largest market (the population is way smaller than Europe or the Americas), it is probably the most significant due to it being the homeland of most of the major developers, and also a high density of videogame players. Most importantly though, it is the only major market that has weekly stat tracking =)

Right now Wii seems to be selling fairly equally in Japan, North America, and Europe. North America seems to be the top market, but not by very much (it's like 10-15% higher).

[Zeus]

You are, of course, referring to Japanese sales only. It's not even the biggest market anymore

I am talking about the world market in the second paragraph. These stats are all Japanese (I forgot to specify which markets I was talking about, but I'll fix that).

Even though Japan isn't the largest market (the population is way smaller than Europe or the Americas), it is probably the most significant due to it being the homeland of most of the major developers, and also a high density of videogame players. Most importantly though, it is the only major market that has weekly stat tracking =)

Right now Wii seems to be selling fairly equally in Japan, North America, and Europe. North America seems to be the top market, but not by very much (it's like 10-15% higher).

There's been tons of documentation about the Japanese market shrinking. it's actually gone down recently on an overall basis, Nintendo's success not withstanding. Soon, it looks like it will become the 3rd market behind North America (currently the biggest by a bit) and Europe (a close third).

This shrinking market has led to decreasing sales from the Jap developers. So yes, I would agree that they're still by far the most important developers on the consoles, but they were basically forced to look outwards and stop focusing solely on sales within Japan. That's why you see so many of those companies talking about "global games".

A good example Nintendo. They were completely whupped by the PSX in Japan with the N64 but actually held a decent market share here. It was between 30 and 35% through to the release of the PS2/GC from what I remember. That didn't go unnoticed as the NA market saved their bacon that generation. That's what led to them buying up Retro Studios and making their sole purpose in life to create a Metroid game. Metroid performs very poorly in the Japanese market. I firmly believe that the only reason we saw all those Metroid games was 'cause they owed Yokoi one for the GB (imagine where they'd be without that guy?). That's why you saw Metroid 2 on the GB not the NES. More recently you have Capcom making big-budget titles for a NA system (360) for the NA market (Dead Rising and Lost Planet). These games performed very well and for all intents and purposes didn't even have the Japanese market in mind.

Japan's significance is decrease and I expect once this generation is through, they'll be firmly entrenced as the #3 market. Japan-centric approaches are fading and it's all due to the market size.

We need to start looking at the world as a whole to get a much better idea. With the NDP figures being released regularly, it's become easier now. In the past it was easy 'cause the Japanese have very detailed and readily available sales figures but that's not the case anymore.

[Julius Seeker]

Actually the Japanese market has been growing ever since the launch of the PSX. The NES sold 20 million, the SNES sold 17 million, the PSX sold 21 million, and the PS2 sold 25 million. On second placed systems: Genesis sold 3.5 million, Saturn sold 5.7 million, N64 sold 5.6 million, DC sold 2.3 million, Xbox sold 1.7 million, and Gamecube sold 4 million. DS and Wii are (so far) Japan's fastest selling handheld and home console in history.

North America has always been Nintendo's largest market by far; that is until now, Japan is currently Nintendo's biggest market, Europe is #2, and North America is a close third (due to DS sales).

As for Europe, it's not third overall, it has always been very close to North America: 40 million PSX's and 45 million PS2's sold in Europe, which is a lot higher than Japan.

Where Europe falls below North America is with Nintendo products. Nintendo consoles sold very poorly in Europe (handheld aside) until Wii.

[Zeus]

Actually the Japanese market has been growing ever since the launch of the PSX. The NES sold 20 million, the SNES sold 17 million, the PSX sold 21 million, and the PS2 sold 25 million. On second placed systems: Genesis sold 3.5 million, Saturn sold 5.7 million, N64 sold 5.6 million, DC sold 2.3 million, Xbox sold 1.7 million, and Gamecube sold 4 million. DS and Wii are (so far) Japan's fastest selling handheld and home console in history.

North America has always been Nintendo's largest market by far; that is until now, Japan is currently Nintendo's biggest market, Europe is #2, and North America is a close third (due to DS sales).

As for Europe, it's not third overall, it has always been very close to North America: 40 million PSX's and 45 million PS2's sold in Europe, which is a lot higher than Japan.

Where Europe falls below North America is with Nintendo products. Nintendo consoles sold very poorly in Europe (handheld aside) until Wii.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/04/26 ... 94601.html

Japanese game market is shrinking. If I can bring myself to care proving it to you, I'll send you the figures for the overall markets.

There's articles all the time about the Jap market shrinking. The developers, including Miyamoto, have mentioned it. Europe is booming and NA is still strong.

And I'm talking overall, not just Nintendo