The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • SOPA PIPA

  • Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
 #155524  by Imakeholesinu
 Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:34 pm
Discuss.

I'm bored since Reddit is blacked out.
 #155525  by Eric
 Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:36 pm
WHY HASN'T TOWS.CC SHUT DOWN FOR THE DAY! SINE IS A SOPA/PIPA SUPPORTED!

*Internet nerd rages*
 #155526  by Flip
 Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:06 pm
I’m torn on this issue. I personally know creative people who have legitimately had business suffer at the hands of stolen content. The Internet is a creative medium now, just like any other work of art in marble or on canvas. However, the Internet (with cut, copy, paste) makes it infinitely easier to steal content and make money off of it. I’m not talking about simply giving someone due credit when a quote from a blog is stolen, I mean the digital artist who has his photo ripped off his site and sold on a foreign IP.

I understand that people are freaking out that these bills circumvent the courts, but c’mon, do you really have that much much faith in the court process? Suing a website for stealing your material has got to be the slowest, most expensive, and painful process on the planet… Even if you shut it down, there will be 5 more sites that pop up with more of your stolen content. Letting the ISP be judge and jury allows you to stop losing income WAY faster.

Something needs to be done, but what that is exactly, I’m not sure. I agree with freedom of the Internet, but why can we not have that without stealing content? If these bill pass do you really think anything from your normal day to day browsing will change? Probably not.
 #155527  by Eric
 Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:06 pm
Flip wrote:I understand that people are freaking out that these bills circumvent the courts, but c’mon, do you really have that much much faith in the court process? Suing a website for stealing your material has got to be the slowest, most expensive, and painful process on the planet… Even if you shut it down, there will be 5 more sites that pop up with more of your stolen content. Letting the ISP be judge and jury allows you to stop losing income WAY faster.
Ya really don't see anything wrong with this statement? :P

"Fuck the courts, I wanna bitch at the ISP and get around all that law stuff so people can't show my stuff indirectly!"
 #155528  by Flip
 Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:26 pm
Eric wrote:
Flip wrote:I understand that people are freaking out that these bills circumvent the courts, but c’mon, do you really have that much much faith in the court process? Suing a website for stealing your material has got to be the slowest, most expensive, and painful process on the planet… Even if you shut it down, there will be 5 more sites that pop up with more of your stolen content. Letting the ISP be judge and jury allows you to stop losing income WAY faster.
Ya really don't see anything wrong with this statement? :P

"Fuck the courts, I wanna bitch at the ISP and get around all that law stuff so people can't show my stuff indirectly!"

See, this is where it gets messy, because we would have to define what a valid reason to shut someone down is. If someone quoted your term paper and didnt provide a footnote, I hope to god you wouldnt call an ISP and get that website shut down. But, if someone is selling my photographs for profit you better be damn sure I want the ISP to take down their website right away. If the ISP tells me i need to hire a lawyer, file a suit, wait 6 months, appear in court in New Hampshire, and then maybe the site will be taken down I would be pissed. There is almost nothing you can do quickly if it is a foreign IP.

If these things pass, in a perfect world, the system wouldnt get abused, but I know that is probably too much to ask... hence why I am torn.
 #155529  by Eric
 Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:40 pm
There is very very little good will when it comes to copyright material, basically if big media giant can shut you down, they will shut you down, no questions asks, and if they have to annihilate an entire website to get 1 small piece of it eliminated they will, they just don't care. Hell, your BFF Mental could come here and try and get tows shut-down for realz. :p

Anyway, I'm sure Zeus & Don can go into better rants on the subject.
 #155530  by Zeus
 Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:54 pm
Flip, a sham or not, a functional court system is essential to the implementation of a democratic society. You undermine it in a way people can exploit and more shit than you can imagine hits the fan. That's not an option in any scenario......period.
 #155538  by Julius Seeker
 Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:23 am
I didn't really read much about it, but I am incluned to agree with Flip; there's good and possibly bad possibilities. I don't think this is something as big and bad as people make it out to be. From Wikipedia:
The originally proposed bill would allow the U.S. Department of Justice, as well as copyright holders, to seek court orders against websites accused of enabling or facilitating copyright infringement. Depending on who makes the request, the court order could include barring online advertising networks and payment facilitators from conducting business with the allegedly infringing website, barring search engines from linking to such sites, and requiring Internet service providers to block access to such sites. The bill would criminalize unauthorized streaming of copyrighted content, with a maximum penalty of five years in prison for ten such infringements within six months. The bill also grants immunity to Internet services that voluntarily take action against websites dedicated to infringement, while making liable for damages any copyright holder who knowingly misrepresents that a website is dedicated to infringement.[4]
More or less, it looks more like it benefits companies (Netflix, iTunes) who own rights, but punishes sites who illegally exploit the original work of others for Adsense and other ad profits (seems like a good idea to me).

How does this apply to sites which allow users to post material for rev share (like YouTube) - where the sites do make an effort to squash piracy? I don't think sites that put an effort forward like YouTube should see punishment - although perhaps greater punishment for users who violate laws.

What about non-profit sites like Wikipedia or web forums who often quote material for sources? Can they apply for some sort of immunity? I think we can all agree that it would be a very bad thing if non-profit information/education sites like Wikipedia were censored.

Now i think the major online piracy problem doesn't lie within websites. Is there any way to effectively squash torrenting of pirated material? Will ISPs be able to suspend user accounts if they stream or torrent copyrighted material? Much piracy comes from non-website sources, and I think this is the area that really should be tackled far more strictly. If the bill doesn't account for that, then it is fairly worthless.

To conclude: I am, very strongly against the illegal distribution of commercial property (particularly entertainment goods like music, movies, tv shows, fictional books, etc...) copyrighted by anyone; if they were created with the intention to be sold, then it makes no sense why anyone should be allowed to take them for free; in the non-virtual world we very clearly identify that as theft.

I am very strongly in favour of allowing the freedom of informative and educational material - I also feel that education is not free enough. I feel that sites like Wikipedia are beginning to give access to these materials on a level that the public really deserves - and in extension, commercial sources like Youtube and iTunes are offering a great deal of free education in the form of recorded lectures. I would think that only bad could happen if this process were crippled, and would be very socially counter-productive. Can this bill cripple this second point? How so?
 #155539  by Eric
 Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:02 am
 #155557  by Imakeholesinu
 Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:24 pm
Read on the internet that the clear take down of megaupload recently proves that we really don't need SOPA or PIPA.
 #155558  by SineSwiper
 Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:48 pm
SOPA would just be some lazy way to circumvent our freedoms. This site could be shut down with SOPA based on avatars and sigs alone. That's somewhere in the direction of crazy.

What's sad is that the lobbyists have been pushing for some sort of "Super-DMCA" for the last 10 years, and this won't be the last attack.
 #155561  by Julius Seeker
 Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:05 am
Going into all of the discussions on youtube and such on this SOPA bill. There is not really anyone arguing about whether this will cripple anyone's business; they're just a bunch of kids worried that they won't be able to steal stuff online anymore. It just goes to show that while there are people who have legitimate concerns about how this bill will be used, it appears that the overwhelming anti-bill portion seems to be worried about the bill being used for its intended purpose; to enforce an artist or company's rights to owning their own creative property.

I am not against free material - but this should be up to the creating party and those who finance them as to whether or not it should be released for free. I really dislike this view from people that they should be entitled to take whatever they want for free.
 #155564  by Oracle
 Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:13 am
Julius Seeker wrote:Going into all of the discussions on youtube and such on this SOPA bill. There is not really anyone arguing about whether this will cripple anyone's business; they're just a bunch of kids worried that they won't be able to steal stuff online anymore. It just goes to show that while there are people who have legitimate concerns about how this bill will be used, it appears that the overwhelming anti-bill portion seems to be worried about the bill being used for its intended purpose; to enforce an artist or company's rights to owning their own creative property.

I am not against free material - but this should be up to the creating party and those who finance them as to whether or not it should be released for free. I really dislike this view from people that they should be entitled to take whatever they want for free.
All I get from this is that you are for SOPA/PIPA, even though they are extremely flawed pieces of legislation and could be used for extreme abuse, because you think there are some people who want to take advantage of the system as-is.

There is enough evidence out there of the content companies gaming the system 'as-is' for their own benefit for decades. Now that they are losing grip on their control of media distribution, they want to get that grip back via enforced legislation, to hell with if it technically breaks the internet (a major commerce driver for EVERYONE, not just the content industry). Don't for ONE MINUTE think that laws such as SOPA/PIPA are being proposed to protect the little guy who is trying to make money off of copyrighted works. This is as close to a 'save the children' arguement that the bill proponents/lobbysist could get to without looking completely batshit crazy/greedy.

If I'm making money off of selling pirated material, lock me up. If I'm making a CD with some music for a friend that they may not own a 'license' for the tracks, or if I'm using a screen shot from a movie for my forum avatar - leave me the fuck alone.

And to this:
Julius Seeker wrote: To conclude: I am, very strongly against the illegal distribution of commercial property (particularly entertainment goods like music, movies, tv shows, fictional books, etc...) copyrighted by anyone; if they were created with the intention to be sold, then it makes no sense why anyone should be allowed to take them for free; in the non-virtual world we very clearly identify that as theft.
That's great, except you don't get to make up definitions on your own. What you are talking about is 'copyright infringement'. This separate definition exists for a reason, since infringing on copyright does not deprive someone of a physical good like theft does, all it does is replicate bits/information. Deprivation of 'potential profits', that cannot be proven, cannot be lumped in with theft. And, in the non-virtual world, this DOES exist - i.e. taking a book and photocopying it. Again, this is not theft, this is copyright infringement.

A quick arcticle talking about the difference: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201107 ... ling.shtml

Society is not better served by a bunch of corporations hauling people into court over sharing content, or by shutting down entire sites for a piece of infringement without first proving guilt. Sure, go after the people making money off of it (without breaking how a major economoic tool works, without breaking the most magnificent communication tool ever created). Leave the general public the hell alone for something the media companies have been encouraging for over a decade (see my previous youtube video post).
 #155566  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:57 pm
The legality of Copyright Infringement is not really the issue; it is a fact that it is a felony offense (in the US at least) - this is not in question. In fact, my point made in my post just above was that people are upset that they won't be able to get free shit illegally anymore; not unlike some of what you wrote above.

The purpose of the bill was more or less to help enforce the law against piracy. This purpose I support because, lets face it, it is a complete joke to pirate tons of stuff without consequence; and as a result, it is very obvious that piracy online is rampant. Much better enforcement methods are required.

What I am against is the crippling of sites such as Wikipedia and YouTube.

So the best thing would be a bill devised that would have those sorts of sites (like wikipedia) immune to any drastic action, while effectively giving enforcing powers the ability to destroy torrenters, illegal websites, and effectively bring the offenders to the prescribed justice defined in the criminal code (In the US, I believe it is a felony offense which can be punished for up to $250,000 and 5 years in prison).
 #155573  by Oracle
 Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:20 pm
Julius Seeker wrote:So the best thing would be a bill devised that would have those sorts of sites (like wikipedia) immune to any drastic action, while effectively giving enforcing powers the ability to destroy torrenters, illegal websites, and effectively bring the offenders to the prescribed justice defined in the criminal code (In the US, I believe it is a felony offense which can be punished for up to $250,000 and 5 years in prison).
As mentioned above and in another thread: Due to the fact that the DOJ was able to get Megaupload shut down, why are new, more stringent, laws required?
 #155576  by Oracle
 Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:43 pm
Julius Seeker wrote:In fact, my point made in my post just above was that people are upset that they won't be able to get free shit illegally anymore; not unlike some of what you wrote above.
Are you saying I was complaining about not being able to "get free shit" anymore in my post? Or are you saying I'm in line with your point?

Bottom line: Fair use laws need to be bolstered big time. The average citizen should not be worried about sharing information online and then being dragged into court (if it's for profit, that's another thing). As long as the internet exists, those bits and bytes can be transferred to others, that's just how the technology works.

The internet brought about a fundamental change in how information storage mediums are used. Unfortunately for some (i.e. IP content owners, the main-stream-media, etc.), this, in my opinion, requires the whole concept of copyright in modern society to be re-evaluated. This, as opposed to attempting to shoe-horn in pre-existing notions/laws of how content was accessed/distributed in the pre-internet age.

And no, I don't want everything for free.
 #155614  by Julius Seeker
 Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:52 am
Oracle wrote:
Julius Seeker wrote:So the best thing would be a bill devised that would have those sorts of sites (like wikipedia) immune to any drastic action, while effectively giving enforcing powers the ability to destroy torrenters, illegal websites, and effectively bring the offenders to the prescribed justice defined in the criminal code (In the US, I believe it is a felony offense which can be punished for up to $250,000 and 5 years in prison).
As mentioned above and in another thread: Due to the fact that the DOJ was able to get Megaupload shut down, why are new, more stringent, laws required?
Maybe they're not; although that site was up for an AWFULLY long time (Over 6 years) before they took it down. Something is wrong with that.