Americans, I want to ask you all a question:

[Zeus]

Yes it's politics-related and deals with an issue one of the parties keeps sayin' but please keep the responses bi-partisan. I just wanna know the reasoning behind it.

Why is it that people (both Undecided Voters and card-carrying Republicans) buy the whole "give tax breaks to the job creators and they will create jobs" line that the Republican party has been spewing for decades? I mean, most middle-class people are saavy enough to realize that rich people of any political affiliation not only make their money off the backs of the middle-class but would gladly trade any of them in for an extra dollar. Yet I've heard this rhetoric since the days of H.W and only from the Republican party. Do people really buy it and actually vote for the Republicans because they truly believe it? I don't get the logic....

[Don]

Job creators isn't necessarily just the really rich guy. Your small scale entrepreneur also creates jobs.

The statement obviously has to be true at some levels but probably not universally. There's obviously some people out there who if you give them more money they'll create more jobs, but a lot of them just keep the money for themselves too.

[Shrinweck]

We don't understand them and they don't understand us. Every election cycle this really confuses me. They think they're being logical, too, about certain things. Validity of that logic is easily called into question, but they think the same about our logic. Really drives me crazy.

It's clear to me that trickle down economics doesn't work. We're coming off of thousands of years of the rich being super rich and the poor being die-in-the-streets poor. If it was human nature to, while being super rich, trickle down their money to better society, create jobs, and fortify infrastructure - then thousands of years of human civilization would have been much more enjoyable for the vast majority of people alive. The only thing they see in their interest is to keep infrastructure and such running at the point that it maintains the status quo. Not every rich business owner is Henry Ford. If a rich guy makes 40 million instead of 35 million, that's five more million going to what is probably an offshore bank/tax haven, not five million that will be injected into job creation.

[Zeus]

Job creators isn't necessarily just the really rich guy. Your small scale entrepreneur also creates jobs.

The statement obviously has to be true at some levels but probably not universally. There's obviously some people out there who if you give them more money they'll create more jobs, but a lot of them just keep the money for themselves too.

That's what I mean. Businesses decide based on operational needs. Any jobs added are hardly gonna be affected by a decrease in the corporate rate or the reduction in the personal tax rate of the owner(s). Yes, there will be some who use a small portion of the additional coin on actual job increases but it's almost too minor to consider.

And one thing I want to make sure everyone understands: the definition of 'small business' is not what you think it is. There are a lot of "big" corporations that are technically "small businesses"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_business

http://www.sba.gov/content/what-sbas-de ... ss-concern

[Zeus]

We don't understand them and they don't understand us. Every election cycle this really confuses me. They think they're being logical, too, about certain things. Validity of that logic is easily called into question, but they think the same about our logic. Really drives me crazy.

It's clear to me that trickle down economics doesn't work. We're coming off of thousands of years of the rich being super rich and the poor being die-in-the-streets poor. If it was human nature to, while being super rich, trickle down their money to better society, create jobs, and fortify infrastructure - then thousands of years of human civilization would have been much more enjoyable for the vast majority of people alive. The only thing they see in their interest is to keep infrastructure and such running at the point that it maintains the status quo. Not every rich business owner is Henry Ford. If a rich guy makes 40 million instead of 35 million, that's five more million going to what is probably an offshore bank/tax haven, not five million that will be injected into job creation.

What kills me is that it's the exact same rhetoric for as long as I paid attention to politics and people buy it every 4 years when there's no proof in any way it's helped. I'm just trying to understand why people keep drinking that Kool Aid.

Trickle-down economics is much more complex than it sounds. If you're thinking nationally, it's not quite as pronounced and could easily be considered negligible. But when you start talking about regional economics, it becomes significantly more important. It's not by mistake that nearly every single sporting venue in any city of any size was built using taxpayer money. Heck, you have two larger cities (Seattle and Kansas City) which have built professional-grade arenas (well, Seattle will be done in a year and a half) with no professional tenants just in hopes of attracting that particular industry (Quebec City is gonna join them soon although they have a much greater chance of attracting a tenant). You take that arena away and people have many options outside that specific regional area to spend their money (or even spend it internationally on trips or just save it and not spend at all) hurting the economy of that municipality significantly. It basically only works with true small businesses and more on a retail or services level.

[Anarky]

I always find it bizarre that Conservatives will claim the USA is a "Christian Nation" yet when it comes to paying higher taxes to support and help other people they lose their shit.

Some people vote Republican for specific issues such as abortion. Some think they will someday be millionaires and billionaires and they want to hold onto all that imaginary money before it becomes a reality.

The role of government should be what is best for all people. Biden's opinion of abortion is what all politicians should stride for. You may be personally against it, but you understand that in some circumstances people need to be able to chose. Instead American politics is based on My Team vs Your Team, which is counterintuitive. Most people in this country are really what you'd call 'Centrist' but you just can't seem to win being a moderate.

Don't get me started on Trickle Down Economics. They don't work, and if they do they only trickle down to the other 1%'ers.

[Shrinweck]

Some think they will someday be millionaires and billionaires and they want to hold onto all that imaginary money before it becomes a reality.

This. A surprising portion of the middle class and working class here thinks they're going to some how make it some day. It's part of the American Dream, but Jesus, people, vote for what you are not what you aspire.

[Don]

Historically speaking trickle-down works in the sense that the government takes the money from the rich guys because government has an army while the rich guys, despite what people claim, do not, and then redistribute the money into some common good. It's problematic with all the globalization as you can just move your money elsewhere now. That said just because the government takes the money from the rich doesn't mean it can distribute it any better. The cut the tax on rich argument has always been dependent on that rich people know how to better use this money, and at some level it's probably true. Apple got rich from iWhatevers and that created a lot of jobs too, and it's almost certainly more efficient than a government run program, though in the end a lot of the jobs created are the low skill low wage jobs in China that doesn't help people here. But of course if those jobs didn't go to China and you had to pay USA level of wages, then iWhatevers wouldn't sell nearly as well (they'd be way more expensive) and maybe you won't even create as many jobs overall. So you can't say it never or always works but both party pretty much stick to the policy that their method is the only one that works as opposed to acknowledging that sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.

[Zeus]

Some think they will someday be millionaires and billionaires and they want to hold onto all that imaginary money before it becomes a reality.

This. A surprising portion of the middle class and working class here thinks they're going to some how make it some day. It's part of the American Dream, but Jesus, people, vote for what you are not what you aspire.

You know, I never thought of it that way, being tied to the "American Dream". But it makes sense in a weird way.

And Anarky, like I said before, trickle-down economics is a very different animal depending on your scope. I can prove to you how it works in some situations, particularly on a municipal level. But federally? It's much more circumstantial evidence

[Shrinweck]

Yeah because of our population size and the amount of completely random lotteries (and then the chance of making it in acting or reality TV), people think they're constantly on the brink of being part of the 1%. This chance to rise to the top is part of the idea of the American Dream, as opposed to what the dream actually is - working hard so your children can make 10-20% more income in their lifetime than you do in yours. That's all anyone should ever really want, unless you're one of those insane/talented people that actually know how much work and luck it takes.

Trickle down economics works the same way socialism does - in small pockets and in very precise ways, but trusting in human nature to not just dick around is something that just doesn't seem conceivable.

[Don]

You don't need to hit the lottery or whatever to get to the 1%. Getting either a high paying job or being a small scale entrepreneur can get you there. Of course there's a lot of cost/risk assoicated with but opportunity exists. If it's that easy there wouldn't be anything special about the 1%, and honestly only 1% of the people can be, well, the 1%.

[Shrinweck]

High paying jobs and being an entrepreneur takes work. That's not part of the dream as many think of it. The people who think they're going to magically make it and be rich are the same people who aren't working towards a job with a lot of vertical mobility or running a small business.

[Anarky]

Does anyone else just get depressed every election season? Frankly I'm happy I don't live in a swing state, but jesus I loathe the 24 hour news cycle and how polling is done.

[Anarky]

You don't need to hit the lottery or whatever to get to the 1%. Getting either a high paying job or being a small scale entrepreneur can get you there. Of course there's a lot of cost/risk assoicated with but opportunity exists. If it's that easy there wouldn't be anything special about the 1%, and honestly only 1% of the people can be, well, the 1%.

Most of the 1% just got to be that lucky sperm and hit the right egg.

[Zeus]

Does anyone else just get depressed every election season? Frankly I'm happy I don't live in a swing state, but jesus I loathe the 24 hour news cycle and how polling is done.

You know what depresses me every time there's an election at any level in either of our countries? Most people place most of their vote on the economy yet very few have an actual understanding of how the economy works. If you don't know, you should have an obligation to find out. Don't think you should make sure you do, especially if you're gonna sit there and say "each vote is important/valuable". If that's the case, why are you so reckless with it by basing your vote on something you don't understand?

[SineSwiper]

You know, I never thought of it that way, being tied to the "American Dream". But it makes sense in a weird way.

Why do we have an American Dream?