The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • My last OGT post got me thinking about bosses

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #26271  by Don
 Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:41 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>There are sort of two extremes of boss fighting. One is the random model which almost all console RPG uses. Boss choose an attack at random and smacks a (or all of them) character at random. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

The other end of this is the aggro model that just about every MMORPG uses. Boss hate X over Y and does so absolutely, and will always smack X over Y until you've done something to change it.

Both system has problems. In the random system if your people are strong enough you can be assured that you'll be okay barring a very bad string of events. In the aggro system as long as you know what's X and what's Y, you can come up with a strategy that will win 100% of the time once you've amassed enough firepower. Both ultimately lead to boring boss battles, whether it's on your console RPG or a 40 man raid in a MMORPG.

I personally don't like the aggro system. If you want to make it pretend as if the monster's got intelligence, just code it to attack whoever can heal/revive first. With the current limitations of RPG engines this will work 100% of the time in the boss's favor. Despite every MMORPG out there claims to have good AI, it's still currently impossible to have any AI that beats a minimal level of human intelligence without either being scripted or cheating. So I think this path is ultimately fruitless, both due to AI and game engine limitations. So how do you make randomness actually challenging? As much as I hated Phantasy Star Online, the random waves of area effect death is the way to go. Recall everything Dark Falz is pretty much a wave of AE death. You happen to stand in the wrong square and get stun locked by spikes, you just die. You get tagged with Soul Steal, you die. You can't rotate the camera fast enough to figure out where you are when the blue beams come around, you die. But then what happens to strategy? What strategy? Is 'healing when HP is low' strategy? Whether you're talking about EverQuest or Final Fantasy 10, that's ultimately the basis of all strategies out there, aside from game engine exploits. I've said many times before, but healing is too good in all RPG engines out there. It's a safe way to convert MP to HP which extends your ability to fight at no real cost to anyone else.

Of all the things PSO did wrong, they probably have the best uber encounter system I've ever seen. Healing is good, yes, but you die so fast it's certainly not this painless way to convert MP to HP indefinitely when you can get one hit killed. Rather than having characters with 4000 HP that can effortless turn whatever MP they have into more HPs, they let you have basically an unlimited supply of MP (cost of healing is absolutely trivial compare to amount of MP you have), and the ability to get your 800 or whatever HP back almost instanteously provided you're still alive. It will work in a console RPG, as long as you make sure you don't have to go through an hour long dungeon to get there. FF10 sort of did this. One of the last boss has something that's very closely to an AE wave of death. You can avoid it if you play the ultra conservative 'everyone always at full life and shell/protect on everyone', or if you happen to have a summon out at the right time to eat it for you, but assuming you're not overleveled and you actually have some damage distributed on your characters, it can kill your entire party in one swipe. It's not even a scripted 'ultimate attack' thing that you always have time to prepare for. It may suck when you get wiped out (happened on the 2nd time my friend tried, after winning the first time), but that's what makes winning fun (though running through the final dungeon sucks too). And it'll work for a MMORPG. If you've a powerful dragon that has enough variation so that you can't guaranteed the same strategy always work on it, you can actually design loot that are truly extraordinary as opposed to something you expect people to farm over and over again once it's been killed once. It might even give your casual players a chance if fighting uber bosses isn't just about figuring out some formula and executing again.

Also, I think RPG should move more into real time based. No matter how you look at it, if it's turn-based, you can figure out some kind of formula to get things right, because turn-based games are very rigid. Area Effect Death Type A and B and whatever should be counterable in theory, but only if you've the leadership and decision ability to react on time. It shouldn't be "Last boss is about to use his ultimate attack. If you've a brain you should heal everyone now!"</div>

 #26333  by SineSwiper
 Sat Nov 03, 2001 2:45 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Strategies on RPGs aren't too hard, and I'm surprised nobody's coded some level of intelligence on the other end of things (monsters and bosses). After all, we such good AI on FPS and RTS games.</div>