The Shrine

So I was looking at some random news and recalled there's some recent complaint about how a white actress was casted to play Motoko Kusanagi in Ghost in the Shell movie:

http://kotaku.com/the-japanese-internet ... 1771544034

And of course, a while back there was the whole deal about a black actress was cast for Hermione in Harry Potter in some new play or whatever.

What I don't get is how these discussion seem to be talking about racism or something, because it's apparently wrong to assume that in a demographic that's overwhelmingly white (England) a character that was never mentioned to be not white would be, well, white. It'd be like reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a book about warring warlords in ancient China, and assume that Lu Bu was a black or a white as opposed to ethnically Chinese just because they never said Lu Bu was a Chinese. In fact, one of the random interpretation of ROTK I've heard from Japan is that Sun Quan is a foreigner because in the ROTK it says Sun Quan doesn't look Chinese and he has emerald eyes, so even though that'd still be a huge stretch if you want to cast Sun Quan as a white or mixed race there's at least something in the source that backs it up, but you certainly can't possibly say anyone else in ROTK could possibly have been ethnically not Chinese. I mean, Harry Potter didn't even take place in America (here white would be majority but not overwhelmingly majority). It's not racism to assume that someone in a homogeneous demographic culture is ethnically that type!

On the other hand, the Ghost in the Shell scenario is the opposite. If you look at the Anime/Manga depiction of 'Japan', it is easy to tell that none of those guys look remotely ethnically Japanese or even Asian at all. Unless we're supposed to believe that the portrayal of the character is some kind of artistic rendition that has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the characters involved, the only conclusion you can get is that it is normal to have a bunch of guys who are most definitely not ethnically Japanese despite having Japanese names. Given the often underlying nonsensical demographics that makes up the average Japanese Anime/Manga, you'd assume in a movie they'd just cast whoever they think that'd make the most money. Interestingly, if you look at the article, the Japanese don't seem to care very much about the casting while I've seen at least a couple articles from the western world outraged at this casting.

Hollywood whitewashing is definitely a legitimate issue. One of the biggest 'recent' examples is probably the Avatar live action movie. Casting Aang as a white person was one thing to be angry about (hey, it's another movie about a white man saving everyone) but his two friends who are clearly modeled after Inuits were white, too. But, hey, the brownish villains - let's let them remain minorities cause... lawl?
The problem here is multifaceted in that it's insulting to audiences and that it takes genuine parts away from minority performers. It's insulting to audiences, in that it assumes a white audience is too stupid to think a movie starring minority performers is "for them" but it also places yet more lime light on the idea that being overly "Eurocentric" is the only acceptable thing. The crazy thing here is that the movie industry does these things and then defends it. We all know they're doing it to appeal to the most people, they know they're doing it - just be honest so that hopefully an honest discussion could some day occur.

It's true that in an average anime, it's difficult to discern that all the characters are Japanese - but it's important to remember that the color of the characters skin is supposed to be thought of as "a basic person." To the Japanese it's a done deal that these characters are Japanese people the majority of the time, even when they're given an incredibly European name. This is a wonderful concept in animation. Everyone things the characters are connected to them and that they are the same. Not exactly a bad concept. The problem with white washing Ghost in the Shell is... who are they selling this movie to? Fans of the show, or what's the point of making the movie at all? Making the movie appeal to anyone at all should really start with the fans. It isn't a necessity, you can still make a good movie, but you're going to end up with World War Z (btw.. not saying that was a good movie). What you've started with, which is a source piece with (in our culture) a multicultural group of people and it's going to turn into a movie starring Brad Pitt and his white friends embarking to save the fucking world.

I don't think the Japanese care or will ever care because it's just another American adaptation of something they created. They probably think "Well... of course the characters would be white. Their country is white." I say this hating to put words in their mouths, but, eh, let's be honest, if I hear about an anime getting a live action adaptation in the United States I'd assume basically everyone was going to turn into a white person, as well.

So, right, taking parts away that could have and probably should have been given to a minority is a practice more in line with, say, nepotism then straight on racism. These are the people they know, the people they've worked with. These are their friends and more ten then not family. But also, last and not least - these are the people we are used to. The financiers want faces that are going to get them money. And those faces are going to be white. Why? Because that's overwhelmingly who we know. And like most Eurocentric cycles in the United States... I don't see it ending in my life time. But then again, I guessed in the 90s that we wouldn't have a black president for another 20-30 years.

But, hey, I'm sure Wanda Sykes will fucking kill it as the black best friend.

I liked the way that post ended there but on the topic of, say, Hermione getting cast as a black woman that can be multiple things. And to be honest most of those things I'm okay with.

Stunt casting. Done more in more in comic books, characters who are white and/or male becoming suddenly... not so much. It is done just to get issues sold and in the case of theater, butts in seats. This isn't a practice I'm necessarily pleased with, but if it makes you genuinely angry then you're probably an asshole... So I kind of like it.

The actress was just the best. There's really no use going into this point further - the performance will speak for itself and if she deserved it then people will shut the fuck up in time. This is also an argument for whitewashing, but it's a shitty one in that case... unless the performance actually does speak for itself. In that case... well done?

They want to try something new. I like this one the most. Hermione was never actually described as white. And while I've only read one of the Harry Potter books (so I'm just parroting something I read), she apparently was fussing with her nappy hair constantly. So, yeah, potentially taken as black at times by black audiences. There are probably other things. I read about this like what was it, three months ago?

Why the double standard exists of taking minority roles away and whitewashing them isn't okay while giving a traditionally white role to a minority is, is, well, complicated. If I were to address it the title of my letter would be "Dear White People, Don't You Have Enough? And Other Thoughts that won't be Read by Anyone."

Julian Abagond wrote:"The Japanese see anime characters as being Japanese. It is Americans who think they are white," he writes. "Why? Because to them white is the Default Human Being."

However, in Japan, white is not the default. Japanese is. Thus, there is no need for them to "look Asian", because no matter how ridiculous the characters look, everyone will assume they are Japanese.

His argument sounds nonsensical to me - characters such as Sailor Moon are clearly white. I don't think anyone sees her as anything else.

Also, Julian Abagond has the argument backwards. Japanese people have a specific idea of what Japanese characters should look like, and any deviation from that makes the character foreign.

When it comes to characters looking white, Japanese and westerners have the same idea - pale complexion + diverse hair/eye colours = white. His argument asserts that Japanese people see all those white-looking anime characters as Japanese; the reality is, they don't.

Mokoto is the big example under the microscope at the moment. All of the criticism comes from Americans, and they point out that Mokoto is Japanese due to her name and the fact that she has Asian features. BUT, Mokoto also has white features; and due to this deviation, Japanese people see her white.

An interesting video take on this specific instance, but the problem is that it's only a handful of opinions. And it's very easy to make excuses for why it's okay.

This kind of thing deserves criticism. Sometimes it's more okay than others but people should at least keep talking about it when it happens.

Also asking about discrimination in the country where the Japanese are the overwhelming majority is something that could easily be lost in an "on the street" type interview. Whitewashing also isn't going to seem like as big of a deal in a country where the majority of live action performances are going to be by Japanese. The idea only gets unpalatable when it becomes the idea of taking a role away from from an Asian specifically because they were Asian in the first place... but let's be honest here the roles were almost certainly never going to go to an Asian in the first place. The idea that it'll just be more profitable with a white female lead is part of the problem. These are the people who keep getting the opportunities. And feeding "white audiences" white performers because it's what makes money is literally the problem and feeding into it with whitewashing is only exacerbating the issue.

That video is most definitely not proof that "Japanese people see her white," though. The opinions on the matter differed and for good reason. The animation style is 100% about drawing a "basic human" in the eyes of the creator/audience and the "white" features are in fact about making characters stand out. In a society with brown and black hair and dark eyes, having something different in animation is going to be memorable. Motoko has purple hair and purple (sometimes purple-red) eyes. What about that says white any more than not white? She isn't some wide, green-eyed redhead with freckles. The idea that it's animation and it doesn't matter is also a good point though. And why this instance of whitewashing isn't really rating too badly on my radar.

When the Japanese draw white people that are meant to be white, they don't come out of it looking like Motoko.

This is a good example of the contrast where the middle character is Asian while the surrounding two are not. It's subtle. But it's there.

Whitewashing is probably limited to the pool of available actors since just because the script called for an Asian, if you don't got anybody that seems like would sell the movie in that role maybe you have no choice. It's more of a long term opportunity thing. I was reading in Japan they made a movie for Romae Thermae which is about a Japanese guy time traveling to the Roman era and of course everyone in the cast is Japanese, which is pretty funny because the Romans make fun of the Japanese for being different even though all the guys on screen are Japanese. Now Hollywood probably has more resources to draw to compared to Japan so maybe we should expect a better representation ethnically wherever it's relevant but even Hollywood isn't expected to always have the right guys for every script.

For Harry Potter, the story takes place in a demographically homogeneous country where something like 2% of the people are black. So it's assumed that if you're not told a character is black they're not black. This is exactly the same as ROTK where just because Sun Quan is described as having emerald eyes doesn't mean he's not Chinese because it took place in a demographically homogeneous country too. For that matter, never in anywhere in ROTK did it says Lu Bu, Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang, or anyone else is actually Chinese in ROTK, and you can bet the Chinese will be very shocked if someone wants to make a claim that any of those guys with obviously Chinese names in ancient China is not Chinese. I'm not saying you can't have artistic rendition or reimagining or whatever they want to call it. I just don't get how people, including the author herself, apparently tries to make it sound like they're all for racial equality or whatever when there is no reason for anyone to assume Hermione is not white. The person who owes an explanation is whoever cast her as black, and there's nothing wrong with casting Hermione as black but don't act like you're some kind of crusader for racial equality or whatever. Heck, this is like someone who casts Uesugi Shingen as a female in Japan for fan service stuff and says this is done for gender equality. Uesugi Shingen is a warlord in the Sengoku era who is generally described as a big, bearded man who may have been homosexual, and yet casting this guy as female is supposed to be a big triumph for gender equality.

I don't know what the Japanese thinks about their representation of 'Japan', but I find it hard to believe anybody can believe the average Japanese in Anime/Manga is actually ethnic Japanese. It's either their idea of an 'artistic rendition' of Japanese has nothing to do with reality to begin with, or the more likely scenario is that most 'Japanese' in Anime/Manga are obviously not ethnically Japanese just because they have a Japanese name and nobody is actually bothered by that.

Shrinweck wrote:Hollywood whitewashing is definitely a legitimate issue.

No it's not, and everything you wrote after is SJW nonsense. I am not going to attack your points -- because you just made baseless assertions and vague accusations. Have you been spending time on Tumblr or something?

Wanda Sykes? Seriously - that's the "minority" zinger you are ending with? Why not Jamie Foxx, Jackie Chan, Kevin Hart, Ice Cube, Dwayne Johnson, SLJ, Wesley Snipes, Tyler Williams, Megan Good, Will Smith, Rob Brown or any of the countless other leading "minority" actors out there? Ah, cause it doesn't support your skewed joke, sorry. (Speaking of which, what the fuck is Vin Diesel? Part black, ya?).

Sometimes I think the SJW crowd is full of racist, bigoted hypocrites (and ya, your thoughts on a Black Hermione are just that, hypocritical bullshit)-- and I can see why, considering that's the lens they view the world through 24/7. Me - I took a second to look at the imdb page - half+ the cast appears to be Asian. Ghost in the Shell has limited appeal -- so they took a big name actress - big fucking deal. That's business in Hollywood, not racism. If we had more big name Japanese actors, then maybe Scarlett Joe would not have made sense (who is in everything lately), but we don't.

Ah, so there is the only point to your argument - we have limited big name actors that are Asian. You bet. You think that has to do with racism? Is whitey keeping the Asians out? Or maybe, just maybe, it's simply cultural factors/demographic (which is what, 5% of the US population at best?). Jackie Chan and Jet Li broke in for a time. Hell, even Chow Yun-Fat, Donnie Yen and Yifei Liu carried crossover movies. Bruce Lee is a cultural icon.

I understand that the SJW mindset is nothing is fair until every representation has equal measure LBGTQ, black, Asian, non-binary identifying and then a token white male to piss on. Fuck demographics, artistic merit or business. But you know what -- that's stupid. In fact, it borders on fascism. Fuck SJWs.

Oh, and why isn't there a post on the SJW brigade crying that Nintendo didn't make Link female? That's a good one -- let's cover that fucking joke next.

lol

Edit: Fine, a few things.

Beginning your post by calling me an SJW just means that I don't care about any of the rest of your post that follows thus the lack of an effort post.

Wanda Sykes, in particular, was a reference to something specific and somewhat recent.

Also, lol, you said you weren't going to go through my posts and "attack my points" and yet you basically did anyways.

Shrinweck wrote:lol

Edit: Fine, a few things.

Beginning your post by calling me an SJW just means that I don't care about any of the rest of your post that follows thus the lack of an effort post.

Wanda Sykes, in particular, was a reference to something specific and somewhat recent.

Also, lol, you said you weren't going to go through my posts and "attack my points" and yet you basically did anyways.

Oh, I definitely think you drank the SJW koolaid and this isn't the first thread you spit some of it back out -- I am afraid I won't be able to escape using the term. And to be fair, when I said attack your "points", I meant offer any legitimate debate to any points (of which there were none).

I guess I missed the Wanda reference. Got a link to a buzzfeed article?
The only thing I could google was: http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/06/1 ... ald-trump/

I don't get the reference after reading that, so maybe something else?

It was the latest Chris Rock monologue from the Academy Awards (besides already being a joke in circulation - Wanda Sykes as being great as the black best friend). That's why I didn't fault you with not getting it. Not exactly a deep cut - but lol pop culture.

I'm just not interested in interacting with someone who's just going to go ham-fisted into things with name calling. You label me with something that, from your oh-so-haughty position, I should be ashamed about. Then you paint me with this brush as if I'm going to agree with the rest of "their" points. Another person does that on this forum - you two are kind of perfect for each other.

Shrinweck wrote:Another person does that on this forum - you two are kind of perfect for each other.

He has teeth

Back on topic.

There's a few reasons for "White Washing" I believe, Star Power, Opportunity, and of course business.

I think there's very specific examples of the more blatant white washing that have happened in the movie industry just off the top of my head that movie 21, about card counting college kids who were racking in millions from Vegas casinos under the guidance of their college Professor, Keven Spacey who I believe had star billing. The actual story it's based off of involved 4 Asian college students, but the 2 leads were cast as white so audiences would relate better. Gods of Egypt is another, this one for more obvious reasons. I think Edge of Tomorrow even involved nothing but minorities across the board but was changed to white actors in the critical roles.

So again this happens because of Star Power, and this can go both ways. Kali brought up the A-list black actors, and it's true any of those guys can get any role meant for a black or white person. At the same time there's also a lot of stars, that may or may not be hot at any given time that just get a lot of roles. Chris Hemsworth for example lands in a ton of shit because he's hot due to Marvel movies & Star Trek, everything outside of those movies get terrible reviews and even worse box office, but because he's a hot name he's gonna get the offer more often then other actors. Tom Cruise was brought in as the lead in Edge of Tomorrow because he's Tom Cruise and his name on the billing probably helped it out, even if he's slipped a bit in recent years.

I think for a lot of minority actors the -opportunity- to have that break out roll is often limited compared to white counterparts, which is true for anything in this fucking country, there's more white people then minorities, that's why we're minorities, so it's always going to be harder for us to get roles. For Black actors they often have to climb their way up through black comedies or fucking slave movies. I don't even know what Asian actors have to go through to get noticed, Asian actors probably have it worse then Black actors I never see these motherfuckers in anything.

Then of course there's business, whether or not you want to acknowledge it or not, the perception and maybe the reality is that the industry likes to put white actors front and center on their billboards and marketing. China and Japan straight up hides black actors in the backgrounds of their movie posters, there is no cultural sensitivity towards minorities in those areas, and while it's certainly not as blatant in the states or Canada you have to believe that marketing execs are always looking at promoting their movies so everyone wants to see them and not swing too heavy in marketing that appeals towards minorities.

As for live action Anime? It's all cancer. lol. I don't care if Goku is white or Asian, nobody is getting that hair right. I see Serena from Sailor Moon as a stupid white girl, there is no scenario in my head where I look at the art for Sailor Moon in the manga, old anime series or new anime series and see an Asian girl. I could see Major Motoko Kusanagi as white or Asian to be honest, because in Ghost in the Shell: Arise she looks significantly more Asian then the previous Ghost in the Shell movies/shows, but keep in mind Star Power from Scar-Jo most likely landed her that role/casting, when Keanu Reeves was hot he was considered for Spike Spiegel in Cowboy Bebop live action, nobody would have complained about that perfect ass casting.. Ang being white in the Avatar movie was some bullshit because child actors are a dime a dozen, and all suck but that entire movie was a clusterfuck so who cares.

The opportunity to star is what I was getting at. The Asian population in California is actually higher than elsewhere in the United States, for one thing, which is where casting occurs. Also, when you go into "speaking roles" it's also already lower than the percentage of Asians in the United States. I can only imagine starring roles is just.. abysmally low.

Shrinweck wrote:Another person does that on this forum - you two are kind of perfect for each other.

Wahhh, he's in my safe space. Stop projecting on me, regressive, and I wont be annoyed.

I was with Eric until the business section, because he didnt run with "because white people dont like movies with non-whites" angle. I dont think thats true at all, with the exception of going back to the whole A-list thing.

Its like SJWs forget just how many A list minority actors there are and have been. Ya, maybe we dont have a current A list japanese actor -- but so what? Does Bollywood? Its simple demographics. But I am POSITIVE no one would be against one. Its simply business to get a big name to a film - nothing more.

Finally, Ill go back to this gem:
"Why the double standard exists of taking minority roles away and whitewashing them isn't okay while giving a traditionally white role to a minority is, is, well, complicated. If I were to address it the title of my letter would be "Dear White People, Don't You Have Enough? And Other Thoughts that won't be Read by Anyone."
Aka. why I call you an SJW hypocrite, Shrinweck. And a racist.

PS - Editted, cuz for some reason I started talking about how awesome Undercover Brother was and the fact that I have never seen Barbershop....