The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • A movie that fucks LotR in the ass with a broken broom handle and bends it over an unfinished wooden table.  That movie, is Blackhawk Down.

  • Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
Your favorite band sucks, and you have terrible taste in movies.
 #48198  by Imakeholesinu
 Sun Jan 20, 2002 12:31 am
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>A movie that fucks LotR in the ass with a broken broom handle and bends it over an unfinished wooden table. That movie, is Blackhawk Down.</div>

 #48199  by Gone to Shakers
 Sun Jan 20, 2002 2:22 am
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I thought it was an alright movie, nothing special.</div>

 #48201  by Crono
 Sun Jan 20, 2002 4:13 am
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>And remember, it's got two huge names behind it (Jerry Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott) so that part alone should pull in lotsa ticket sales.</div>

 #48204  by Blotus
 Sun Jan 20, 2002 2:18 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "arial narrow"; text-align: left; padding: 0% 5% 0% 5%; '>Careful, or the LotR fanboys here will rape YOU in the ass with the broom handle. Haven't seen BHD yet, but it looks like something more my style. Must see.</div>
 #48205  by Kupek
 Sun Jan 20, 2002 4:10 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>An e-mail from a listserv I'm on at school. I took out the name of the guy who sent it (most people probably wouldn't want their name thrown around on the net without their knowing 'bout it). He's a friend of mine, very credible. He's a graduate student, was going to work on a doctorate in geology, but he's now doing history, science and technology, or something to that effect. (Geological field work got boring, hated his advisor.)

<blockquote>I used to tutor an ex-Navy Seal at West Virginia University. He was in Somalia and
then quit the military after he was duped into killing civilians. His group was told that
they were going to raid a paramilitary office of some sort. They went in shooting -
shooting civilians. I don't know who the people really were (he was very reluctant to
give any details) though.

[name deleted]

------- Forwarded message follows -------
<a href=http://www.independent.co.uk/>The Independent</a> (UK)
12 January 2002

Black Hawk Down: Shoot first, don't ask questions afterwards

In October 1993, 18 US soldiers died during a botched mission in
Mogadishu. The incident is the subject of a new film, Black Hawk Down. But, asks
Alex Cox, why have the deaths of the Somali civilians been forgotten?

In the 1970s and 1980s, Somalia was ruled by a corrupt president,
Mohamed Siad Barre. It was a familiar story - an unpopular, despotic nutcase
(read, Pinochet in Chile or the Shah in Iran) who suppressed popular dissent
and did what the US government, or US-owned multinationals, told him to
do.

By his last days in power, Siad Barre had leased nearly two-thirds of
Somalia to four huge American oil companies: Conoco, Chevron,
Phillips, and Amoco (the story presumably involves British business interests also,
since Amoco is now part of BP). The land was believed by geologists to
contain substantial quantities of oil and natural gas.

In 1991, unfortunately for the oil giants, Siad Barre was overthrown,
and he fled the country. Somalia - as a functioning nation state with
which they could do business - fell apart. The oil giants' exclusive
concessions to explore and drill were worthless in the absence of a viable
government to enforce their claims.

In the early 1990s, there were various humanitarian disasters also
deserving of urgent intervention. For the United States to spearhead
a United Nations mission to Somalia was, from a humanitarian viewpoint,
capricious. But, citing famine in Mogadishu and in the southern part
of the country, and an urgent need to restore order, President Bush I sent
in the Marines.

The United States meant business in Somalia: this was obvious from
the location of the American embassy, established a few days before the
US marines arrived in Mogadishu, in the Conoco corporate compound. The
Los Angeles Times reported that Bush's special envoy to Somalia had used
the Conoco compound as his temporary headquarters.

The marines - along with their United Nations "partners" - settled
down to their tasks of guarding American oil men and disarming the unruly
populace. It didn't go well. On 7 May 1993, the Canadian press reported that
elite Airborne Regiment Commandos in Somalia had tortured and murdered a
civilian teenager, Shidane Arone. Other reports of murder by Canadian
peacekeepers followed.

As for the Americans, having encouraged the ambitions of a Somali
general and clan leader, Mohammed Aideed, they decided (shades of Osama Bin
Laden!) that Aideed was their enemy. Half-a-dozen "United Nations" missions
were dispatched to capture him. All failed.

On 3 October 1993, a team of so-called "elite troops" - Delta Force
Rangers - tried to capture Aideed again, in central Mogadishu. Aideed wasn't
there, but the American troops became confused. Shortly after, they were
surrounded by angry crowds. In the massacre that followed, between
500 and 1,000 Somalis, many of them women, children, and old people, were
killed. Eighteen Americans also died.

Of course, it is the American deaths, and the TV image of a couple of
American bodies being dragged by enraged Somalis, rather than guilt
over the massacre of hundreds of Africans, that haunts the
popular-American-media mind. There wasn't a massacre. There was a
firefight. Only Americans lost their lives.

In the aftermath of 3 October 1993, various articles appeared about
the shootout/massacre, including internet postings by Mark Bowden and
pieces in the Philadelphia Inquirer. In 1999, Bowden's book Black Hawk Down
appeared.

It's interesting to observe how the story was re-told over that time.
An article by the former Independent correspondent Richard Dowden the
previous year makes the clear point that US troops killed unarmed men, women
and children from the outset of their mission: "In one incident, Rangers
took a family hostage. When one of the women started screaming at the
Americans, she was shot dead. In another incident, a Somali prisoner was
allegedly shot dead when he refused to stop praying outside. Another was
clubbed into silence. The killer is not identified." Dowden's original articles
contain these horror stories. But his book does not. Instead, Black Hawk Down
gives us lashings of extraordinary heroism in the face of blah, blah, blah.
Rolf Harris singing "Two Little Boys". Sanitized and deodorized Death From
Above.

The author of Black Hawk Down is aware of the problem with these
"elite, superior, special forces": they are all white. But he doesn't deal
with what that elite whiteness means, or where it leads. The American
elite forces couldn't perform their central role in Somalia - to protect
the oil business - because they were white racists, untrained and unable to
relate to a humanitarian mission in Africa, even when corporate money was
involved. The House Armed Services Committee laid the problem on the
line the following year, 1994, in a comprehensive report on the state of
racial affairs within the US military - An Assessment of Racial
Discrimination in the Military: a Global Perspective, 30 December 1994, US Government
Printing Office.

The committee sent investigators to 19 military bases at home and
abroad, where they interviewed 2,000 randomly selected GIs. They found that
overt racism was "commonplace" at four of the bases, and that inadequate
training in racial awareness was a widespread problem.

Another task force, which investigated organised racism in the US
Army, said the problem was particularly serious in all-white, so-called
"elite" and "Special Operations" units. Such racial separatism could lead to
problems, its report warned, because it "foster[s] supremacist
attitudes among white combat soldiers". (The Secretary of the Army's Task Force
Report on Extremist Activities, Defending American Values, 21 March
1996, Washington DC, page 15.)

The Somalia mission ended in disarray. The Americans and the "United
Nations" allies left. In the aftermath of the massacre, Canada, Italy
and Belgium all held enquiries into the excesses of their troops. Canada
put several "elite" white soldiers, who had tortured and killed Somalis,
on trial. The US has never held any public investigation or reprimanded
any of its commanders or troops for what went on in Somalia.

Now the US prepares for another mission to Mogadishu. It may take the
form of bombings, or of a poor Somali academic, harassed by the State
Department and CIA into offering himself up as sacrificial prime minister in
another doomed governance experiment. It involves a substantial propaganda
angle. The oil business is all powerful, and must be obeyed.

Not that I'm suggesting that the forthcoming film of Black Hawk Down,
directed by Ridley Scott, is anything so crude as that. I'm sure that
it will be even-handed, and depict its protagonists exactly as they were
in life, skin pigment and all. And I look forward to the sensitive
handling of Ewan McGregor's character: elite, white GI John "Stebby" Stebbins,
renamed as Company Clerk John Grimes in the film, who is now serving a 30-
year sentence in Fort Leavenworth military prison for raping a 12-year-old
girl. Massacres and rapes are horrible things. No one would stoop to
glorify, or justify them, would they?

The current US military doctrine is something called "Full Spectrum
Dominance". It is the brainchild of several other mighty corporations
and the Pentagon. Consisting of putting weapons in orbit in outer space,
it will mean the US is an even greater, more unstable, military power -
in heaven as here on earth. It - along with anti-ballistic missile
systems and the murder of prisoners of war - is currently illegal under
international law.

If British politicians go along with the next war, on Somalia, or on
Iraq; if they loan the country to the US for their Star Wars and Echelon;
if noted British film-makers like Ridley and Tony Scott (coming soon!
Top Gun reality TV!) do devote themselves to burnishing the image of an elite
US military in films like Black Hawk Down, perhaps it's time for a
debate in Britain about what America's "Full Spectrum Dominance" really means.
---
Alex Cox has just completed 'Revengers Tragedy', a British film, for
Bard Entertainments and Exterminating Angel

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 #48206  by Imakeholesinu
 Sun Jan 20, 2002 8:31 pm
<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>19 boyiee. not 18...on the movie thay saio 19.</div>

 #48207  by G-man Joe
 Mon Jan 21, 2002 12:47 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "comic sans MS"; text-align: left; '>Wouldn't surprise me. Like that movie Mel Gibson did, Revolution (I think that's what it was called), that movie was a complete farce. The British were not as bad as the movie depicted. Last of the Mohicans was a much better movie.</div>

 #48208  by Kupek
 Mon Jan 21, 2002 4:18 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>The Patriot. And why stop there? Rich plantation owners had slaves - don't even try giving me this paid labor crap. Gibson's character was an amalgamation of two people (there was a Ghost, I believe), but everything else was fictionalized.</div>

 #48209  by G-man Joe
 Mon Jan 21, 2002 5:47 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "comic sans MS"; text-align: left; '>Ah...yes, now I remember why I switched channels! When that was revealed in the movie about salaried slaves....I said, "Oh puhleez!" In a Mel Brooks farce comedy, I'd keep watching. But this was supposed to be serious? HA!</div>

 #48211  by Ishamael
 Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:40 am
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Yeah. I literrally laughed out loud when it was revealed all his workers were paid. Hopefully there are still people willing to crack open a book to learn history...</div>

 #48212  by Ishamael
 Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:42 am
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Last of the Mohicans rules. Just a great film. I still pop in that DVD from time to time. It's the only Daniel Day Lewis film I like...</div>

 #48213  by Ishamael
 Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:43 am
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>You've already used up the broken broom handle thing. We need fresh material here people. ;)</div>

 #48215  by Torgo
 Tue Jan 22, 2002 3:24 am
<div style='font: 9pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Ah yes, who could forget? The Critic (the new ones on ifilm) made fun of the evil British and paid slave thing.</div>
 #48220  by Kupek
 Tue Jan 22, 2002 10:42 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>And my favorite line from the movie:

<b>British military officer</b>: How is it that you are going west?
<b>Hawkeye</b>: Well, you face north and real subtle-like, turn left.</div>

 #48222  by G-man Joe
 Tue Jan 22, 2002 11:30 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "comic sans MS"; text-align: left; '>"The Boxer", "In the Name of the Father" are the other two movies that were really good. Rent them. The others he was mostly a supporting actor.</div>
 #48229  by Ishamael
 Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:34 pm
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Yeah, Daniel Day-Lewis was really great in the movie. In fact, all the characters were very good. Even though he was the bad guy, I really liked Mogwa. That dude was just hardcore. "Before you die, know that I will wipe your seed from the face of the Earth". How can you not like a guy who says stuff like that?

As far as other Daniel Day-Lewis films, I really haven't seen that many. I never saw those two movies that G-man mentioned.</div>

 #48236  by S.Cody2
 Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:17 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "Times New Roman"; text-align: left; '>Let's not forget his masterful axe-work.</div>

 #48237  by S.Cody2
 Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:26 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "Times New Roman"; text-align: left; '>Hurrah for sugarcoated Hollywood representations as modern day games of 'cowboys and indians' fraught with jingoistic platitudes!</div>

 #48239  by Kupek
 Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:54 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Not many people read history books for kicks. That's what concerns me so much about revisionist history like this in popular media: it denies what actually went on, and popular media greatly influence a persons' perception of the past</div>

 #48245  by SineSwiper
 Thu Jan 24, 2002 9:23 am
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Jerry can get fucked with a broom handle for that disgusting Pearl Harbor movie.</div>