The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • so about game budgets

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #160104  by Don
 Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:39 am
I was looking at the credits for SWTOR: Rise of the Hutt Cartel because the server's not up yet. This retails for $10 if you're subbed and $20 otherwise. It covers level 51-55 so assuming it takes you 5 hours to get a level you're looking at like 20 hours of gameplay to hit 55 and then something like 5 hours of gameplay at 55 because you got to factor in the guys who never raid or do PvP seriously. The price suggests it's a relatively lightweight expansion so I figure the credits must be pretty short right? Well after 5 minutes and at least 1000 names scrolling past the screen I decided to hit escape instead of seeing the list of names will ever end. Obviously there's a lot of auxiliary stuff like the EA Legal team or the 150 voice actors they have (David Hayter is Jedi Knight male, never knew that). But let's stick to guys who sounds like they'd be involved in the game itself. I counted about 30 guys with the 'Designer' title, at least 50 guys on the 'graphics' section, and another 50 guys on the 'engineering' section. What are designers? They're guys like you or me that talks about what would be good in a game that turns out to be wrong most of the time. Certainly SWTOR's track record suggests the design team doesn't particularly know what they're doing, but there are 30 of those guys. The graphics guys I guess are probably needed. I have no idea what the engineering section means. I guess that's the actual programmers so apparently you need about 50 guys to program something on a well-known engine while not doing anything particularly ground-breaking.

So lots of people = lots of money, but what does the expansion retail for? $10-$20. I guess it's this cheap because they figure people will continue to sub for $15/month and lured by the expansion, even though history suggests people aren't this dumb and usually they'd just play the expansion for a month and then quit again because that's what people do in virtually any MMORPG. And then we'll probably hear about how SWTOR loses a ton of money because 2000 people worked on an expansion that sells for $10 that lasted for 2 months of subs at best and then we'll hear about how the industry is doomed because $50 million just doesn't get you what it used to and you can't get any programming done with less than 500 people.

But this is silly. EverQuest's designer staff is like 2 interns who are trying to pad their resume as a MMORPG designer. It's arguably not any worse in terms of game design compared to any MMORPG (sometimes the interns happen to be brilliant guys, and sometimes they are not, the same way other MMORPG designers are). Yeah EverQuest is horribly out of date, but it's probably still profitable. WoW's overhead cost is something like $50 million an year and I'm pretty sure that includes its programming staff. That's a lot of money but obviously still very small compared to the money WoW makes. A game having just 500K subs making $100 an year off each sub (which is pretty low) can get $50 million, and that's enough to pay for all the overhead costs of the most profitable MMORPG in the world, so I'm not exactly feeling sorry for the guy who can't manage on $50 million.
 #160106  by Shrinweck
 Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:58 am
They've been (and had the money for) working on the expansion since a little after launch. There was some kind of announcement about them making so much money initially off game sales that the expansion was in the works. They're probably including a ton of people that were on the project before (what I assume were massive) layoffs. Then there's all the localization (every voice done in every language where the game is sold - this is potentially a thousand people alone) and QA and don't forget they still have EA behind them with what has to be an ever-increasing amount of employees that are just doing grunt work from project to project. Even if someone did five minutes of work they probably still get slapped onto the credits and get to mention it on their resumé. I imagine there's an awful lot of resumé padding that goes on in these big game developers since layoffs are so common in the tech sector, doing your friend a favor by getting him a little work and a mention in the credits means he has something additional to put on his resumé.
 #160108  by Julius Seeker
 Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:33 pm
Design Teams can get relatively bulky for a game like that.

1. Design lead - Signoffs, reviews
2. Design producer - Interaction with other departments and the design team
3. Product manager - telemetry, direction, etc...
4. Senior designer
5. Content designers
6. Scripters and prototypers

I can easily see how a project like a high content and feature packed MMO with a license can require rather large design teams.
 #160109  by Don
 Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:25 pm
I only counted the designers, graphic guys, and engineers because those sounds like the guy you absolutely need. There's literally a thousand names on like the EA related staff and everything else that is involved. I still don't see why you'd need say 25 designers to come up with something that's exactly the same as any other MMORPG, for example.
 #160113  by SineSwiper
 Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:15 pm
Random point: I've read that marketing costs for movies actually end up being a shock for many first time producers. In most cases, you spends almost as much in marketing as you do in creating the whole movie.

I don't doubt that the gaming industry is similar.
 #160117  by Don
 Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:59 pm
SineSwiper wrote:Random point: I've read that marketing costs for movies actually end up being a shock for many first time producers. In most cases, you spends almost as much in marketing as you do in creating the whole movie.

I don't doubt that the gaming industry is similar.
Sure but don't come back and cry about how there's some kind of inexorable force of evil that prevents you from making a cheap game if you spend $100 million on marketing a game that ended up having less than $100 million of revenue. If you marketed poorly then you lose, and as a consumer I have absolutely no sympathy here. Even advertising on the Super Bowl isn't a sure bet. I have no doubt there's all kinds of pitfalls you can end up wasting $50 million on with nothing to show for it, but that is simply not my problem. It's kind of like you read about these CEO that led to record losses for their company and then get paid like $50 million for it. No I don't think being a CEO is easy, but I'm pretty sure I can manage any company to record losses too especially if I know they'll give me $50 million at the end. Making a game on budget isn't easy, but I'm pretty sure I can manage a game as well as any of the 'mega flops' out there, because it's hard to do worse than that.
 #160125  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:51 pm
Don wrote:It's kind of like you read about these CEO that led to record losses for their company and then get paid like $50 million for it. No I don't think being a CEO is easy, but I'm pretty sure I can manage any company to record losses too especially if I know they'll give me $50 million at the end. Making a game on budget isn't easy, but I'm pretty sure I can manage a game as well as any of the 'mega flops' out there, because it's hard to do worse than that.
Rich people problems.
 #160132  by Don
 Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:27 pm
Well I saw an article that says that basically most of the big money stuff in western world do not award people for making sensible decisions. Like say Blizzard hired me (or you) to lead their Project Titan. If I say 'okay guys I heard this WoW thing worked well in the past, let's just do the same thing there', it's probably going to do decent but then people are just going to say, 'why did we get a guy that does something any random guy on the Internet can do' and I probably won't be getting those $50 million bonuses. Instead if I say that we're going to do something totally radical, instead of charging people $15/month we're going to give people $15/month to play Project Titan and make that up on the microtransactions and selling user privacy data on the side. So it's probably going to sell like 50 million copies in the first year (we'll still charge them $60 for the box) and I'll get my $50 million raise, and an year later when Blizzard is bankrupt and sued into oblivion I probably get another $50 million for being fired. The western world rewards people taking crazy decisions because "I heard WoW was a good game so let's keep that up" just doesn't cut it when you're trying to meet stockholder expectations who expect Google to have half of the GDP of the world by now. And why shouldn't I take the crazy decision if I was in charge, since it's not my money that I'm losing if the game/institution/whatever totally flops. Besides, if I don't take a crazy decision then I look dangerously close to just another normal guy and we know 'just another normal guy' isn't going to get paid a lot of money.