The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • Going to sell my Dreamcast...

  • Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
Because playing them is not enough, we have to bitch about them daily, too. We had a Gameplay forum, but it got replaced by GameFAQs.
 #23830  by ManaMan
 Thu May 10, 2001 4:40 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Helvetica, Modern; text-align: left; '>There are no other games I'd consider buying for it (with the exception of maybe Sonic 2) and I've played the games I own for it to death already. It's time to retire this machine... I'm tired of Sega, I've been supporting them with their last 3 mistakes and I've just gotten burned in the end... every time. I've learned my lesson, as have most gamers. I think it's time for Sega to call it quits and step aside in the console department (actually I think they have already...)

Anyway, I think I might just pick up an N64. I never played the new Zelda game or Conker's BFD and I never got to finish Turok 2.</div>
 #23832  by kali o.
 Thu May 10, 2001 6:51 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Benguiat Bk BT", Modern; text-align: left; '>I have too many good games for it...(over 14 legit games[ie; actually paid for]...which is alot for me).

Plus, I still need Half-Life, Sonic 2, Shenmue 2.

For me, the DC has been great...and luckily, since I've been planning on picking an X-box, I am suffering from little regret at it's death(makes buying X-box stuff that much easier).

*shrug*

KO-
"back to the shadows"</div>

 #23833  by Blotus
 Thu May 10, 2001 7:22 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "arial narrow", Modern; text-align: left; padding: 0% 5% 0% 5%; '>Don't forget about Crazy Taxi 2.</div>
 #23838  by Don
 Thu May 10, 2001 10:21 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>And I don't buy this 'they've good games, they just didn't hype it enough.' People who say that need to take a course on Game Theory in Economics. It's a classical problem that's been worked out to death, but the result is simple. A small player attempting to compete against a big player on hype/ad will always get completely destroyed. If Sega actually hyped the DC enough for Nintendo or Sony to feel threatened, they'd simply have died even faster when Nintendo and Sony counter with ad blitz of their own. People never bought game on this intangible scale known as 'quality' to begin with. People buy games because they want to. It doesn't matter Superman 64 received -5 out of 5 in all review scales out there, if people think it's cool, they'll buy it (and as far as I know, the title sold quite well). Same with Pokemon, the sport game clones, the wrestling games, and so on. The market reflects what the average gamer thinks of Sega's 'quality' and if they're to expand the market, they'd have to rely on hype/ads, and there is just no way they can beat Nintendo or Sony at this. Their marketing position is simply too weak. For all of DC's glory, I doubt it even came close to what N64 sold, and N64 isn't exactly that successful against the PSX.

Sega's games are very otaku-ish in nature. Lunar comes to mind as the best example (DQ7 is like that too). They're trying to sell things that the general public simply don't care about, and no the Crazy Taxis and Sonics won't save the system. Just look at N64. It's got more million sellers than you can name and it still can't beat the PSX (yes Nintendo has something like 48% of the market, but how much do you think of that 48% is N64? Consider how dominating Game Boy is at the handheld market, not very much).

Game do not sell a system. Games do. Even if you look at DQ7, it sold 4 million, which means 1 out of 25 people in the world bought a PSX for the sole reason of playing DQ7 (assuming everyone who bought DQ7 bought a PSX for DQ7. I'd assume everyone who bought a PSX for DQ7 bought a DQ7). If you look at the history of every successful gaming console, they've always won on the number of title they've available. Quantity of your library, not quality, is what wins you the console war.</div>

 #23840  by ManaMan
 Thu May 10, 2001 11:04 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Helvetica, Modern; text-align: left; '>I agree with you completely... although I feel it my duty to inform you that there are a few more than 100 million people on Earth... probably just a typo. :)</div>

 #23841  by Corak
 Thu May 10, 2001 11:34 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>I think they would have done just fine if they didn't do so bad in Japan.</div>

 #23842  by Zeus
 Thu May 10, 2001 11:43 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "Arial bold", Modern; text-align: left; '>So many great games for it. 2000 was the DCs year in terms of quality software. You're not gonna get much for it now anyways. But do get Zelda 2, it's just awesome. Really impressed me</div>

 #23843  by Zeus
 Thu May 10, 2001 11:45 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "Arial bold", Modern; text-align: left; '>Umm, Lunar 1 and 2 topped 250,000 units for the PSX. It's the mentality of the public after the Sega 32X and Sega CD that really hurt them, as well as Sony's emergence as a force</div>

 #23844  by Zeus
 Thu May 10, 2001 11:45 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "Arial bold", Modern; text-align: left; '>I'm just discovering how many great games there was for it</div>

 #23845  by Zeus
 Thu May 10, 2001 11:46 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "Arial bold", Modern; text-align: left; '>Hell yeah! Might be the only new game I buy this year (at full retail, that is)</div>
 #23849  by Don
 Fri May 11, 2001 12:57 am
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>Lunar never made it to anywhere besides Babbages and EB, which is not exactly the best way to distribute your game.

Well, I saw Eternal Blue in Best Buy, but there are only two copies at any given time, and it's not because people were buying them.</div>
 #23850  by Don
 Fri May 11, 2001 12:58 am
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>I forgot to quote my figures, but I've seen Sony announced 100 million + PSX shipped.</div>

 #23851  by Stephen_S
 Fri May 11, 2001 1:04 am
<div style='font: 10pt Arial, Modern; text-align: left; '>You know what I don't understand? How the Japanese could systematically ignore every DC game except for one starring a talking fish--A FUCKING RETARDED TALKING FISH--named after a bodily fluid.</div>

 #23852  by Ishamael
 Fri May 11, 2001 1:09 am
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif", Modern; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>hehe yeah. All that cash they wasted in Japan would have been better spent on this side of the pond...</div>

 #23853  by Stephen_S
 Fri May 11, 2001 1:13 am
<div style='font: 10pt Arial, Modern; text-align: left; '>Don, I don't like Lunar anymore than you do, but you must live in some kind of isolated bubble city. I've seen a truckload of Lunar boxes in every store from EB to Best Buy to Toys 'R Us here in Dallas.</div>
 #23855  by Ishamael
 Fri May 11, 2001 1:22 am
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif", Modern; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>The reason I say it doesn't receive much hype is because bye and large, the only people who know anything about the best DC titles are people on the net or people who live in arcades. People who just screw around with video games (ie normal people or casual gamers) have no idea that things like PSO, Skies of Arkadia, etc even exist. Meanwhile everyone has heard of a fairly mediocre title like Might and Magic 3 for PS2 because we've been inundated by M&M advertisement blitzkreig. People here who watch WWF know that for a long time every other commerical for RAW and Smackdown! was yet another M&M3 commercial. The only DC games that people know about are things like NFL2k1, SA, and Shen Mue because they all got serious TV time and the sales reflect that.

Sega had a blistering launch because of the Sega's massive initial comapaign, but has since gone nowhere because there is no more massive campaign. Sega has zero mindshare in the USA (again) and thus another economic failure in the console market.
But as far as value, I don't think anyone got burned by DC. It'll be at least a year before anyone catches up to them in terms of quality software volume. So it's easily worth the $150 I paid for it and even more worth the $99 it costs now. It's kind of a shame that the full power of the console was never realized, especially when it just hit it's stride as far as software that was available and developer familiarity. Ah well, long live PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox! ;)</div>
 #23857  by Don
 Fri May 11, 2001 3:33 am
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>Though it depends on who you're learning this from. Like every aspect of Economics, there is the economic version, and then there's the mathematical version (which doesn't work in the real world). I've friends who took the mathematical version and you just stare at matrixes and solve them even though it has nothing to do with the real world. The class I took, Economies of Strategy, which boasts as "The only economic class with real world use", we talk about real world stuff. :)

M&M is a pretty big title here, that's why it has the ad to back it up. You can't just ad blitz something no one's ever heard of. Even if you did, it's not going to be very successful.

Having ad blitzes for game when you've such a limited installed base is most likely going to fail, costing you more to sell the games then what you'll earn. I mean, you don't see any kind of ad for about 90% of the PSX games that no one's ever heard of on TV, but they're still making a living somehow (otherwise those games wouldn't be made).

I think DC is certainly worth the price, and I love most of the games I got on it, but the system is also headed toward doom from the start, and it's not because lack of ad or American stupditity or whatever. I've said this before, but the console with the biggest library tends to win. You just can't get enough people to buy your system by having a couple A+ games. It may get you a nice footing to start, yes, but after that, you need the 3rd party titles, and a lot of them, to get people to buy your system. 4 million copies of DQ7 may sound like a lot, but not when compared to 100 million PSX shipped. There's 96 million people who bought a PSX for a reason other than DQ7... and they had to buy a PSX for some other game (or one would assume).</div>
 #23858  by Don
 Fri May 11, 2001 3:39 am
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>They only started carrying Lunar EB in Best Buy the last month or so. They started with about 5 copies but now it's down to 2 copies. I don't recall seeing them in CompUSA.

Like I say, I'd like to see some concrete sales numbers on Lunar.</div>

 #23862  by S.Cody2
 Fri May 11, 2001 3:02 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Copperplate Gothic", Modern; text-align: left; '>You're getting rid of your DC (for those reasons, no less) for a N64? If I see you, I'm gonna kick your ass.</div>

 #23863  by ManaMan
 Fri May 11, 2001 3:20 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Helvetica, Modern; text-align: left; '>Yep. Bring it on dork. :)</div>

 #23864  by ManaMan
 Fri May 11, 2001 3:30 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Helvetica, Modern; text-align: left; '>Yeah that's one of the titles I picked up. The thing is I've play the hell out of all the DC games that I was interested in. There were tons of great games released for it and I've played them all. Now Sega's given up on it and I learned my lesson with the Saturn so I'm giving up on them now too.</div>

 #23874  by S.Cody2
 Sat May 12, 2001 12:24 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Copperplate Gothic", Modern; text-align: left; '>Tire iron to the head, for that!</div>
 #23876  by Nev
 Sat May 12, 2001 4:15 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Arial, Modern; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 8% 0% 8%; '>The most well-known example is the Prisoner's Dilemma - two criminals caught. If neither squeals on his partner, both will serve two years. But if either squeals and not the other, the squealer goes free whereas the verbally raped serves five years. If BOTH squeal, they serve four years. What is the best strategy if you are a criminal?

It's a fairly important branch of math.</div>
 #23878  by Tessian
 Sun May 13, 2001 12:38 am
<div style='font: 11pt Dominion, Modern; text-align: left; '>You and your friend/brother are kidnapped and put in separate rooms. In that room there is a button; if you press it and your brother doesn't, he dies (and vice versa). If neither presses it or both pushes it, you both die.</div>
 #23879  by Ishamael
 Sun May 13, 2001 1:38 pm
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif", Modern; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>I too don't buy the "stupid American gamer thing". However, Americans do buy whatever they see on TV or hear hyped in the news, pure and simple. And nothing has been hyped or plastered on TV more than PS2 recently. Only Xbox's hype will compare, IMO.

And for a long time, DC had the volume and the quantity (and still does really), yet it still failed. Why? Because no one cares about the games. Why? Because nobody outside of hardcore internet types like the people here know jack about any of its games. In other words, Sega still has not captured the so-called "casual gamer" market. That's the purpose of the ad blitz. The ad blitz (IMO) has two purposes. The ad blitz serves not only serves to hype one particular game, but it also hypes the system.

Also, ad blitz do indeed work with small installed bases. The PS2 hasn't really sold all that many consoles in the US because of production problems, yet I saw add blitzes for PS2 games from day one. They do that because they know that people will ignore the system if they don't keep hyping the heck outta of it. MS or Gamecube will come in and taker over if they don't.</div>

 #23880  by Ishamael
 Sun May 13, 2001 1:38 pm
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif", Modern; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>I know what Game Theory is, rookie... ;)</div>

 #23881  by SineSwiper
 Sun May 13, 2001 2:23 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", Modern; text-align: left; '>That's easy: don't squeal.</div>

 #23882  by SineSwiper
 Sun May 13, 2001 2:26 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", Modern; text-align: left; '>Fucked up Japanese culture? Do I get a cookie if I answer this right?</div>

 #23883  by Don
 Sun May 13, 2001 8:33 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>Both squeal unless you play the game infinitely many times.</div>
 #23884  by Don
 Sun May 13, 2001 8:35 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>If you don't press the button there's no way in the hell you can survive. So you will always press the button because it can't possibly get any worse. Same with your friend. Yes both of you will still die, but assuming you know the outcome ahead of time, there's just no way you won't press the button.</div>

 #23885  by Don
 Sun May 13, 2001 8:36 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>No, because you're screwed if the other guy cheats on you</div>
 #23886  by Don
 Sun May 13, 2001 8:57 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>But that class is more obsessed about solving equation than actually thinking about whether the equations they're solving actually has any relevance to the real economic world.

There's a lot of interesting things you can model with just the 2 player game which is trivial to solve. On the other hand just because you've an N player game with 5 billion variables, it doesn't mean it's actually representative of anything that goes on in the real world.

"I too don't buy the "stupid American gamer thing". However, Americans do buy whatever they see on TV or hear hyped in the news, pure and simple. And nothing has been hyped or plastered on TV more than PS2 recently. Only Xbox's hype will compare, IMO."

That is how products get sold in the first place. If it's not advertised, it's not going to sell a lot. To take a more extreme example, if it's not on the shelves, then the game does not get sold, period. There are certainly deserving games that never made it to the shelves. It works like this in Japan too, especially consider the inventory gets rotated even faster due to the high volume of new games there.

"And for a long time, DC had the volume and the quantity (and still does really), yet it still failed. Why?"

No it does not. It's 3 million or so base just isn't enough to compete with the Playstation, not even with the N64. The volume of games on DC is severely lacking. 9 out of the 10 top sellers last year were from Sega. This is worse than the distribution you see in the N64. It lacks the variety to be competitive. You can't carry a system on just the 1st party.

"Because no one cares about the games. Why? Because nobody outside of hardcore internet types like the people here know jack about any of its games. In other words, Sega still has not captured the so-called "casual gamer" market. That's the purpose of the ad blitz. The ad blitz (IMO) has two purposes. The ad blitz serves not only serves to hype one particular game, but it also hypes the system."

I hate sounding like a broken record, but any feeble ad blitz Sega can mount will be destroyed by Nintendo and Sony for sure. Sega simply doesn't have the money, installed base, popularity, or the number of games to outblitz the entrenched Playstation, or even the N64.

No amount of ad would've done the DC any good. If anything, it'd have just hastened its demise, because there is no way Sega can compete head on in an ad campaign against Nintendo or Sony, which is what will happen if they want to sell it on hype.

The problem has always been, and still is, 3rd party support. Sony is not a strong 1st party developer by any stretch of imagination, and PSX is the undisputed winner of the 32-bit era. There simply isn't any 1st party strong enough to carry a platform by themselves.

"Also, ad blitz do indeed work with small installed bases. The PS2 hasn't really sold all that many consoles in the US because of production problems, yet I saw add blitzes for PS2 games from day one. They do that because they know that people will ignore the system if they don't keep hyping the heck outta of it. MS or Gamecube will come in and taker over if they don't."

It's still more than the number of Dreamcast sold so far. Sony also has the advantage of being the dominant player.</div>

 #23888  by Zeus
 Sun May 13, 2001 11:13 pm
<div style='font: 10pt "Arial bold", Modern; text-align: left; '>Man, I'm collecting so much great software for DC and Saturn right now. So many great fighters and stuff we never got here. Too bad, those systems had some kick-ass software we never got, especially Saturn</div>
 #23889  by Ishamael
 Mon May 14, 2001 1:22 am
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif", Modern; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>My opinion is still that DC failed because of a bad perception due to lack of media exposure (ads, news, etc) and somewhat due to the failure of the Saturn. I think for most people though, the failure of Saturn didn't even factor into any decision not to buy the DC. I think it has more to do with PS2 being pushed by Sony and the media as being the next best thing since sliced bread -- you know, the most significant invention since the printing press (according to EA) and Jurassic Park graphics real-time. All that kind of stuff.

Also, I doubt that PS2 has much more than DC in installed base simply because Sony couldn't make enough hardware, not because it's not popular enough. I saw somewhere that Sony only sold like a million of them in America and this was like 4 or 5 months after launch. I guestimated maybe they're up like 5 million sold by now...which isn't all that much.

DC had lots of 3rd party support before developers dumped the system in favor of the seemingly more lucrative PS2. And I don't buy the whole argument about 3rd party support being so vital...not with Nintendo's success staring us in the face. However, that's not to say 3rd party support is totally unimportant.

However, I do agree that Sega doesn't have the money to compete with Sony in any ad blitzes...that much has become very obvious. So the move to predominantly software is probably best for Sega. I wonder what they're gonna do with all those DC2 specs they had? Maybe sell 'em to MS. ;)</div>

 #23890  by Eric
 Mon May 14, 2001 2:28 am
<div style='font: 11pt Modern; text-align: left; '>Unfortunately the best stuff comes out at the end of the life cycle, meaning we don't get it, or get it in limited quantity, and have to shell out alot of cash for it.</div>

 #23893  by Darx
 Mon May 14, 2001 2:07 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>If I were a criminal, I'd always squeal. That way there's no possible way to get 5 years and still a possibility to get off free.</div>

 #23894  by SineSwiper
 Mon May 14, 2001 2:28 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", Modern; text-align: left; '>No, because if he squeals, you would naturally squeal, too.</div>

 #23895  by SineSwiper
 Mon May 14, 2001 2:28 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", Modern; text-align: left; '>No, you're get four years.</div>

 #23899  by Ishamael
 Mon May 14, 2001 3:13 pm
<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif", Modern; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Well, I this game was never meant to be something played by rational people. It's basically a construct for decision making in computer science...</div>
 #23900  by Arteus Meril
 Mon May 14, 2001 9:33 pm
<div style='font: italic 11pt "times new roman", Modern; text-align: left; padding: 0% 1% 0% 1%; '>It's better no matter what the other guy does.

If he squeals:
You get 4 years for spilling and 5 if you don't.

If he doesn't squeal:
You go free for spilling and 2 years if you don't.

As you can plainly see, either way you should squeal on the other guy. As Ish was getting at, you can't wait and see what the other guy will do before deciding. It's one or the other.

And yes, that *was* easy.</div>
 #23901  by Don
 Mon May 14, 2001 9:38 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>The decisions are made independent of knowing what the other guy said. To be sure if you go second you can always end up in the best situation, but what if you've to go first? If you still insist on not squealing, the other guy will squeal and you get screwed.

Basically the solution is:

If the other guy squeal, you'd of course squeal
If he doesn't squeal, you should still squeal because that way you get less time.

Therefore your strategy is always squealing.

And the same goes for the other guy.</div>
 #23903  by Don
 Mon May 14, 2001 9:40 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>For example, squealing is the dominant strategy because no matter how crazy the other guy is, you're always better off squealing. Though a Nash eq is a solution, usually we're more interested in the Minimax solution, i.e. the best solution no matter how crazy your competitor is.</div>

 #23927  by Gilder
 Wed May 16, 2001 12:54 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Modern; text-align: left; '>Zelda MM and Conker BFD are two of the best games on the market right now, I am replaying Skies right now, no chance I'll sell my DC anytime soon I don't think, even if you are selling it, it was definetly not a mistake buying</div>

 #23939  by Crono
 Wed May 16, 2001 7:07 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Arial, Modern; text-align: left; '>Some of the best games of all time are for Dreamcast. Even moreso than Saturn. And to those who play games with people (fighters, shooters, whatever) those never grow old.</div>