American Craziness

[Replay]

Saw a dude walking down the street with a swastika dead-out on his backwards baseball cap the other day. Flossing it.

New and shiny, which implies the more worrisome notion that someone is *currently* fabricating and distributing the things. There weren't a lot of backwards baseball caps in Germany in 1941.

I got to admit, I was not thrilled.

So I went up to him and asked if he hated Jewish people, wanted to go after one, presented myself up -probably not the best or safest way to handle the situation myself, but I was bothered, and somewhat worried to boot about seeing that shit openly out on the streets in America. Historical experience in Germany shows that the "hide in our homes and be afraid of it" approach doesn't really work - I'll let it known far before time that no matter how much white-pride bullshit is riding in on this Trump wave, it's going to be continue to be okay to be a minority in the United States.

He told me that I had it all wrong, it was "just about white pride now".

Not much I wanted to say to that without getting all bothered myself or needing a year or two to replace the college education dude may or may not have. He walked on, and I blinked several times just trying to process it all.

Strange days indeed to see even that civil an interaction between a person of Jewish descent and a neo-Nazi no doubt - probably better than I was expecting to see he harbored no explicit hate for me.

But it's still worrisome.

Not much one could do about it either; historically, it's been rather well ruled that it's legal under the First Amendment to use the symbol, even the ideology, as long as no violence accompanies it - which is rather the interesting ethical and legal can of worms in America.

But Making America Great again this ain't.

That symbol stood for some truly bad shit, and the thing about Jewish identity is - there just isn't any way to feel good about seeing swastikas walking down the street.

Strange days, my friends. Strange days.

Thankfully I do have a bit of that Hunter Thompson in me - the "It never got weird enough for me" factor - that helps me look at it all with some courage.

[ManaMan]

That's some messed up stuff my friend. I've always said Trump's phrase actually translates to "Make America White Again". Maybe it should be "Make America Hate Again" as it's bringing all the freaks out of the wood work. His rhetoric about Mexicans and Muslims is disturbing and sure sounds a lot like Hitler if you replace Mexican/Muslim with "Jew".

[Replay]

Thanks Mana, yeah, I agree.

I'm not particularly worried about the dude I met. He seemed more confused, in search of an identity, than anything.

But if later on in this election cycle I start seeing twenty people walking down the street flossing swastikas...like I said, unfortunately, my family's people know from history how that one goes.

I blame the globalists more than anything. In their rush to ship American jobs to Mexico and China and Bangladesh they've left an entire generation of young white males to rot without jobs or an identity.

That's a lot of how this shit sparked off in Germany the first time and rural white men in America ain't getting any more employed by the day, no matter what the heavily finessed unemployment numbers say.

[Don]

The issue described reminds me of the times where people asked things named Isis whatever to be changed, even if that name predates the existence of ISIS. Let's ignore the cases where the owner hasn't heard of ISIS or figures they're irrelevant. Suppose you do take ISIS seriously as a global threat and you own Isis Burger. Is it really necessary to take a stand on the name of your shop even if that name represents a lot of bad things to other people? Sure, almost everything can be offensive to some people, but you're talking about something that is likely universally reviled. Burning/desecrating the US flag is legal too, and a lot of time I see people do that simply because it's legal, not because they've some serious grievance against the United States. I think a lot of people do that just because they can. It's not even a case of where someone strongly believed in the cause and wants to legally make a stand. It's like people do it just because it's not illegal.

[kali o.]

America does need to hate again. Counter culture to the PC, black lives matter, feminazi, cis hating, LBGTNBI, everyone is a special snowflake movement. Extremism always spawns a counterbalance.

Its definitely part of the reason Trump is popular. A guy wearing a swastika cap...meh...people forget history...people redefine symbols...no biggie. I think its a stretch to pretend Trump is the next hitler -- but its on the nose for leftist hyperbole, so why not?

[Eric]

America does need to hate again. Counter culture to the PC, black lives matter, feminazi, cis hating, LBGTNBI, everyone is a special snowflake movement. Extremism always spawns a counterbalance.

Its definitely part of the reason Trump is popular. A guy wearing a swastika cap...meh...people forget history...people redefine symbols...no biggie. I think its a stretch to pretend Trump is the next hitler -- but its on the nose for leftist hyperbole, so why not?

You really need to watch South Park Season 19, I'm sure you'd love it.

[kali o.]

I've seen Season 19 -- I like it for the most part (even though I think the kids reaction to the "social" change is less incredulous than I'd like -- they seem to just accept it). I watched the linked YouTube video -- it is certainly an interesting take. I admit, I was/am a little unsure of how ads and new media fit in with the PC theme.

[Replay]

Lmao! Let the record show that Kali officially thinks that a guy wearing a Nazi cap walking down the street in America is "no big deal", also that "America needs to hate again". I will most def remember that one the next time you accuse me of Nazi leanings I've never had just because I have a tendency to point it out when Israel bulldozes over some poor protester.

Blows my mind. . You'd think with all that money and power you claim you'd be happier.

Nothing like the "secret elite" to want a world full of people as quietly unhappy as they are, but that is just one man's opinion really.

[Oracle]

Lmao! Let the record show that Kali officially thinks that a guy wearing a Nazi cap walking down the street in America is "no big deal", also that "America needs to hate again". I will most def remember that one the next time you accuse me of Nazi leanings I've never had just because I have a tendency to point it out when Israel bulldozes over some poor protester.

Blows my mind. . You'd think with all that money and power you claim you'd be happier.

Nothing like the "secret elite" to want a world full of people as quietly unhappy as they are, but that is just one man's opinion really.

You stated yourself that you aren't that worried about the guy with the swastika cap. Kali is just more blunt in his assessment.

And what Kali is getting at isn't as literal as you've taken it. The Politically Correct pendulum has swung to an extreme - everyone seems terrified of offending one another. As Kali said, extremism spawns a counterbalance. That's what the Trump crowd is (for better or worse). He's also right about people re-defining symbols - the Nazi's didn't invent the swastika, after all.

Take what Kali said, and pretend some stranger said it - your bias against the man is leading you down the wrong path.

[Replay]

The only reason I'm "not worried", Oracle, is that I *talked* to the man - Kali didn't. And I didn't talk to him for very long.

Hey! It's great that he doesn't *seem* to hate Jewish people, at least for now. But I'm not taking any bets on whether or not that keeps up if he starts hanging out with the rest of the swastika-loving crowd. Do you want to take a poll on how many people flossing that symbol would put Jews in a forced labor camp today?

As best I am aware, you do not have Jewish ancestry, or a visibly Jewish last name all over your official documents. I do. I have to worry about this one in ways you don't. If the world heads down Nazi road on this one, you have the option to sit by and let bad things happen to other people and not worry much about being targeted, I'd guess - though I could be wrong that you would do that - but this community has unfortunately taken a "not my problem" stance on a lot of things of that sort over the years; the gay-slurs issue, for instance. You guys collectively basically ignored me or worse when I asked the community to stop using gay slurs ten years ago, do you remember that?

So forgive me if I think a lot of people here think that when bad things happen to other people, it's not their problem; or if I tend to think you would probably not give a fuck if I got murdered by a neo-Nazi, given our past interactions. I could be wrong there too. But I'm not going to trust my life to your analysis of this one right now.

You're lucky I'm not being far more forceful on this issue. Ask most Jews how they feel about this shit. *laughs* Ask the Israeli establishment you guys have defended in the past against my criticisms. You think anyone in Israel would be having this discussion about whether or not it's okay to wear a swastika in the street? What do you think would happen to that man if he wore that hat in Israel? Do you know how illegal it is to wear a swastika in *most* industrialized nations worldwide?

Take what Kali said, and pretend some stranger said it - your bias against the man is leading you down the wrong path.

Impossible for me to do with a man who "joked" about having me, and indeed everyone here, killed, kiddo.

YOUR bias FOR the man is leading you down the wrong path in my eyes - but we've had this talk before. You've seen Kali as some kind of cool, buy-me-cigarettes older-brother figure here for almost two decades now. I don't get it - I didn't get it when you fawned over him for getting some Greek property for your family friends despite his ready and proud, if indirect, admission that the "world was so easy to manipulate" - that he possibly participated in the financial manipulations of Greece that led to the meltdown in the first place - but hey, you do you.

It certainly may explain why he thinks other people want to be him.

[Replay]

And for what it's worth - yup, I'd be just as offended if a stranger said "America needs to hate again". America is fucking full of hate right now.

I saw some comment on Business Insider the other day - probably by a Trump supporter, though I couldn't be sure - anyway, it was to the effect of "Don't worry guys, when the civil war comes, we'll get our revenge against everyone who fucked with us."

One hundred and ten dislikes, give or take.

TWICE as many likes.

Do you think that's not something to worry about? A two-to-one like-to-dislike ratio on a comment advocating *civil war*?

No, it's not a valid statistical sample for the population at large; but if two hundred people take the time to like a post and outnumber those who disagree two-to-one that usually means thousands are in agreement out there in the larger world - maybe tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands.

Maybe millions.

I think America has all the hate it can possibly stand right now. Do you want to see North America go to war with itself again?

[Replay]

Indeed I am actually quite worried about that dude I talked to talking to the wrong people and showing up a few months later with a fresh hatred of anything that even remotely reminds him of Judaism. That's kind of how this shit works, historically.

But I am quite practiced at martial arts these days. ONE neo-Nazi coming after me, I can throw through a goddamned window.

I posted here trying to assess whether or not I have to be worried about thirty of those guys sauntering down the street in a few months, singing songs they're not supposed to sing anymore...

[Oracle]

What's with your propensity for responding like a condescending asshole when you don't agree with something? You always have a lot to say, you always seem to be trying to convince someone of something - do you really think your approach helps that cause?

And I enjoy Kali for what he is - an entertaining individual on a message board. Who REALLY knows how to get to people, if he chooses. In that regard, you are probably a close runner up

Outside of that, I don't really know him from a hole in the ground.

And again I go away feeling like I've fed the troll. I guess I only have myself to blame for that.

[kali o.]

All very entertaining but to focus on the interesting for a second...

Replay wrote:
Do you know how illegal it is to wear a swastika in *most* industrialized nations worldwide?

No, actually, I dont. I figure it might be in Germany (they are pretty sensitive to that), but I am not aware of it being illegal elsewhere. Can you clarify?

Personally, I do not believe any symbol should ever be "illegal".

[ManaMan]

To revisit the original post... I don't think this one guy is the tip of the iceberg of an antisemitic Nazi revival.

I think the Nazi's antisemitism was a result of its time and place and won't be replicated in the US.

People are tribal animals and view members from other tribes as suspect, even their humanity is suspect. Other tribes can easily be seen as sub-human. Sad but true but this is the root of all racism to me. This same tribalism can just as easily apply to religion, ethnicity, nationality, even (and especially relevant today) political ideology. In Germany (and Russia before) Jewish people were the other tribe and were viewed as dangerous, untrustworthy, & ultimately sub-human.

The situation in the US is different. Racism has always been present here and is more visible than in other countries because of the mixture of races not present elsewhere. Public displays of racism have largely disappeared in this generation for the first time in our history. As late as the 1960s many mainstream US politicians were openly white supremacist. Racism is still present but sublimated. Some people are resentful of this. They think their racism is justified and that white people really are superior on an essential level and are mad they can't say it. I think that what Trump's done is to be publicly racist again and has really excited a bunch of these assholes.

Trump's mainly gone after Mexicans and Muslims so far. He's (somewhat surprisingly) only gone after blacks to the extent of criticizing "Black Lives Matter" protests. I know "Muslim" isn't a race but like I said, tribalism applies just as easily to religions as well. He's only negatively talked about Jewish people in outdated stereotypes (that they love money and "making deals" just like him).

That being said, I think that Trump's support is only partly from a backlash against Mexicans, Muslims, Black Lives Matter, etc. That definitely is a component but what's put him in the lead is Republicans frustrated with the US political system. The American system is set up with a balance or power and is designed specifically to prevent quick & dramatic changes (absent national emergencies). The founding fathers were leery of too much democracy. Our is the oldest national constitution still in existence.

Republican voters elected a majority to the House in 2010 and then the Senate as well in 2014. Yet in the US system, Obama is still in charge. There's no way for Congress to remove him besides impeachment (which they tried unsuccessfully against Clinton in the late 90s). In a parliamentary system, Obama would have been long gone.

Congress is incredibly limited in what they can do without Obama's support and this has been frustrating Republicans to no end and lead to government shutdowns, stalemates & a near default. They've been unable to rollback virtually any of his laws passed 2009-2010 when he had a majority. I believe this has lead Republicans to lose faith in our system and turn toward the authoritarian strongman Trump. Democracy (at least the US flavor) isn't working for them. Maybe an authoritarian/dictatorial government would better suit them? Someone who can strong-arm his way to victory & ignore those pesky limits that have been thwarting the GOP...

Thoughts?

[Julius Seeker]

America does need to hate again. Counter culture to the PC, black lives matter, feminazi, cis hating, LBGTNBI, everyone is a special snowflake movement. Extremism always spawns a counterbalance.

Its definitely part of the reason Trump is popular. A guy wearing a swastika cap...meh...people forget history...people redefine symbols...no biggie. I think its a stretch to pretend Trump is the next hitler -- but its on the nose for leftist hyperbole, so why not?

You really need to watch South Park Season 19, I'm sure you'd love it.

Interesting take, but I think he's thinking a little too deep on one aspect:
PC culture is not an inherent part of Neo Liberalism, which at the beginning of the video he seems to acknowledge. In the later portions he seems to link PC culture as being a necessary conclusion of neoliberalism, which isn't the case in reality or in the show. In the season of South Park , PC culture (represented by PC Principal) was hijacked and exploited for the purposes of the neoliberal agenda. At the end, PC Principal is the one who violently rebels.

Also, the guy occasionally conflates the two opposing terms of liberalism and neoliberalism. Yes, they both have the word "liberal" in them, but one is a philosophy of liberty and equality, whereas the other is a emphasizes economic liberty - or laissez-faire economics. In our contemporary understanding of the political spectrum, neoliberalism exists firmly on the side of right-wing politics, whereas liberalism exists firmly in the left-wing. It's kind of like how certain people accidentally conflate socialism and national socialism; VASTLY different philosophies that were in militant opposition to one and other.

By the way, season 20 of South Park should be their best ever. The American election falls around the middle of it. Considering the candidates are Trump and Hillary, there should be lots of room for comedy.

[Replay]

Do you know how illegal it is to wear a swastika in *most* industrialized nations worldwide?

No, actually, I dont. I figure it might be in Germany (they are pretty sensitive to that), but I am not aware of it being illegal elsewhere. Can you clarify?

Personally, I do not believe any symbol should ever be "illegal".

As best I am aware of on specifics, it is absolutely illegal to wear a swastika or espouse a neo-Nazi ideology in not just Germany but France, England, and South Africa - as well as Israel, for reasons that should escape no one. This is obviously not a complete list of industrialized nations by any means, but I do seem to recall that these are not the only ones. Jewish lobbies are prominent in much of industrialized Europe and have successfully lobbied to criminalize Nazi symbols and ideology in a great many places. I did a bit of research and this article also seems to indicate that it's probably also illegal in Finland, the Netherlands, Iceland, Sweden, Denmark...possibly Belgium, Poland, and Brazil as well. (In Europe especially, in countries where hate speech is illegal and there is no explicit free speech protection that is constitutionally guaranteed, it's usually illegal to wear a Nazi emblem - a lot of those laws were put in place after WWII for fear of another Nazi uprising and never changed.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

I am in accordance with you on the notion that free speech should override the fear of fascism, odd as it may be that we agree on anything.

That being said, it's possible to be so open-minded that one's brain falls out, generally after getting it bashed in by the kind of neo-Nazi that does hate the Jews, or anyone not purely and ethnically Aryan - and there are boatloads of those people out there, hiding in the wings. Having the social media reach I did for a few years gave me the opportunity to converse with a lot of people and sample a lot of mindsets, and not all of them were benign by any means.

The compromise American authorities have generally made over the years is that people who start wearing Nazi symbols are fully permitted their First Amendment and Fourth Amendment rights - but that their behavior in public is occasionally kept an eye on to see if they develop violent tendencies. I feel this has worked pretty well generally.

But we do have a major Presidential campaign that has become a quiet focus and locus for white-power types, and that may change things.

I'm not going to overreact; again, I agree that this guy didn't seem like a terrible person - just confused, undereducated, and looking for an identity.

I do reserve the right to be concerned that his fascination with the swastika is going to lead him into meeting people who *are* pretty awful - and to discuss that concern with people and communities I respect.

That is my own First Amendment right as an American of partial Jewish ancestry.

[Replay]

Thoughts?

I respect the depth of thought and analysis put into your post, but worry that you are underestimating the nutty hatred of some segments of the GOP base these days.

I spent years debating those people on social media. I saw people using words and slurs I didn't think *existed* anymore, and espousing threats and ideologies that certainly should have vanished around 1865 or so. My own curious tendencies to place myself squarely between the ignorant and hateful and their intended targets showed me how violent they can be, as well - I remember one man who tried to research me, and tried to look up my address, and said he was going to hide at one particular intersection with a sniper rifle waiting for me because I'd "gone too far" in speaking for minority rights/liberal philosophies.

Thankfully, like most violent idiots, he got my address wrong enough that I didn't have to worry, but maybe some of you can understand why I'm not a fan of the way some of you have tried to blast my past addresses here up for public consumption here over the years during arguments.

The people who threw peanuts at a black reporter at the 2012 GOP convention do come to mind.

The GOP's old "Southern strategy" is reaching its apex in Trump, who is breaking the rules only by being openly racist - you're supposed to be quietly, nastily, but secretly racist, for fear of losing votes.

The party has sadly rotted out a bit.

[Replay]

What's with your propensity for responding like a condescending asshole when you don't agree with something? You always have a lot to say, you always seem to be trying to convince someone of something - do you really think your approach helps that cause?

Look in the mirror, Oracle. I don't write long posts going "Boy! I hope my word count really pisses Oracle the fuck off." I "have a lot to say" because I was trained in educational institutions where it wasn't stigmatized to write long and involved discussions. The "TL:DR" attitude around here drives me as nuts at times as my long posts probably drive you.

Life is not simple, and discussions about it that are simple often can't address the complexity of our world, at least in my eyes.

And I enjoy Kali for what he is - an entertaining individual on a message board. Who REALLY knows how to get to people, if he chooses. In that regard, you are probably a close runner up

If you cluster around nasty drama hoping for entertainment, don't be surprised when it backfires on you. That kind of behavior reminds me of the kids I used to see in American public schools who'd cluster around fights jeering people on. It's...not the most compassionate philosophy on life, I'll put it that way.

Outside of that, I don't really know him from a hole in the ground.

Good, at least you can admit it.

And again I go away feeling like I've fed the troll. I guess I only have myself to blame for that.

I feel the same way after about 80% of my interactions with Kali. Sometimes I feel that way talking to you! Sometimes I feel the same way after my interactions with the entire community here - like the times I tried to get people to stop stealing software/movies/etc., or the time I tried to stop people from using homophobic slurs.

If you don't want to interact, then don't dive in.

The general opportunity to engage in studies in community and democracy here keep me coming back, but I have plenty of second thoughts too...

[kali o.]

Well, I know you are wrong about the UK, so I will assume you are wrong about the rest. France has always been a backwards country, so it may be illegal there. Hell, pretty sure swastikas are perfectly legal in Israel as well.

[Replay]

As usual, you are a legend in your own mind and making mistakes, and quite ready to assume that I am wrong just out of sheer dislike for me. Some things never change.

The law as it currently stands in the UK:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

(Public Order Act of 1986)

1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he— (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or (b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

(Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)

Now there is a caveat to this as of 2006:

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.

(Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006)

So it is entirely possible that a neo-Nazi with good enough lawyer could quote that portion of the law to construe Nazi ideology simply as being critical of Judaism, but I would be willing to bet it would be quite the uphill fight.

I mean, honestly, if the spirit moves you - go try it. I see enough articles about employees in the UK getting fired, fined, or imprisoned just for expressing anti-gay or anti-Islamic views that I am reasonably sure what the actual practice of the law is there, and what would happen if someone wore a swastika to work...but hey, you are more than welcome to debate on it. However, if you're going to debate, then you have to prove your case, with actual evidence and points of order.

Simply saying "I know you're wrong" and asking people to believe you on the basis of personality alone just makes you look like you're arrogant and making mistakes...just like when you had me background-checked and yet completely failed to note that I was connected to a prominent American political family.

Really, that one was shocking. How did you fuck that one up so badly? Just your usual arrogant narcissistic laziness about anything not involving money or personal power for you?

[Replay]

Ugh, even I don't like the way these conversations bring out the worst in me.

Anyway, back on topic - as far as I am aware, in Europe especially, many of the legal systems can be construed in such a way as to criminalize the use of Nazi symbolism or ideology whenever the authorities so desire. This is not by accident. After World War II, that continent developed a very rightful fear of what could happen if Naziism rose again. The blood-price paid by the continent for the horrors of Naziism was immense.

The United States has a stronger tradition of free speech, and did not experience the scars of WWII upon its own soil - so even though we did pay a substantial price in both gold and blood for our participation in that war as well, use of the symbolism and ideology are quite legal here - though likely to get one quietly surveilled by authorities in the pursuit of prevention of hate crimes.

I consider such incidents among the price of freedom and free speech.

I just find the overall rise in white-power ideologies since 2000 to be...at minimum, disheartening and saddening.

To me it seems less a backlash against "special-snowflake PC ideology" than it is a backlash against the societal acceptance of minority cultures into popular music and culture, the election of a half-black President, and the way that it's no longer 100% certain that whites are given financial and social advantages over minorities (even if it often still works out that way in practice). Some people can't cope. They want their old, largely segregated, white-dominated world back, and they are not good at existing in a world where minorities are no longer invisible - particularly when some of the real inner-city problems of poverty and ignorance and gang culture that many minorities experience, caused by societal neglect and educational inequality, rear their ugly heads wearing a skin color they don't like.

It provides a pretext for blame - even though the same damned problems of poverty and ignorance and gang culture exist in poor white communities too.

And then the swastikas go marching.

It happened in Germany that way too.

That's just my take on it, though I could be wrong.

[kali o.]

As usual, you are a legend in your own mind and making mistakes, and quite ready to assume that I am wrong just out of sheer dislike for me. Some things never change.

The law as it currently stands in the UK:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

(Public Order Act of 1986)

1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he— (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or (b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

(Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)

Now there is a caveat to this as of 2006:

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.

(Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006)

So it is entirely possible that a neo-Nazi with good enough lawyer could quote that portion of the law to construe Nazi ideology simply as being critical of Judaism, but I would be willing to bet it would be quite the uphill fight.

I mean, honestly, if the spirit moves you - go try it. I see enough articles about employees in the UK getting fired, fined, or imprisoned just for expressing anti-gay or anti-Islamic views that I am reasonably sure what the actual practice of the law is there, and what would happen if someone wore a swastika to work...but hey, you are more than welcome to debate on it. However, if you're going to debate, then you have to prove your case, with actual evidence and points of order.

Simply saying "I know you're wrong" and asking people to believe you on the basis of personality alone just makes you look like you're arrogant and making mistakes...just like when you had me background-checked and yet completely failed to note that I was connected to a prominent American political family.

Really, that one was shocking. How did you fuck that one up so badly? Just your usual arrogant narcissistic laziness about anything not involving money or personal power for you?

Ummm....what?

I think you tried to reference some various hate speech laws (which are controversial on their own) to somehow show me that the swastika is illegal. That's not how it works. I've been to the UK plenty - they have a punk/neo Nazi scene that wear swastikas. Hell, they even have neo Nazi (white first) political parties. I know it is not illegal there.

If you drew a swastika on a sign and wrote "Kill all Jews!", then stood outside temple...well, maybe. But otherwise, the swastika itself is no more illegal than the Nazi flag. Just ask Prince Harry...

https://millennials.today/wp-content/up ... 24x768.jpg

And on Israel (since I was curious)...
http://www.haaretz.com/israeli-governme ... s-1.406366

I'll save you the time -- it all fizzled out in 2014. Nazi symbols are legal in Israel.


I am not sure why you are being argumentative on this point. I just found it interesting and, when you elaborated, I corrected you. If you are never wrong, why do you even want to debate people?

Edit: And now you said something else interesting. UK employees imprisoned for anti-gay or anti-Islamic speech? Care to elaborate? I wouldn't be surprised on the anti Islamic thing, but I'd love to read more.

[Oracle]

If you don't want to interact, then don't dive in.

Sage advice, friend

[Shrinweck]

Drawing loose parallels to Hitler is easy. People even compared Obama to Hitler. There are similar trends, especially if you're looking for them. They are worrying, but it's also a confirmation bias type thing going on with drawing parallels to Hitler. In the end, it's a far cry from world war and showers that aren't showers.

[Julius Seeker]

While some of his followers are clearly like Nazis, Donald Trump himself isn't anything like Hitler.
He's FAR closer to the idiot Turkish President Erdogan.

[Replay]

Whether or not you get arrested for wearing a swastika in the UK, Kal, depends on who you manage to offend.

I have no doubt plenty of punks in the UK wear them; I have just as little doubt that if they wear them in or around a Jewish neighborhood, the police will get called, the person wearing it will be arrested or detained, and the laws I mentioned will be cited.

As for Prince Harry...well, congratulations! You've taken a step towards actually figuring out that a lot of the world's leaders don't practice what they preach. The Windsors have been suspected of having quiet Nazi sympathies for a long time; but try getting them arrested for that or any of the other laws they break and as likely as not you'll quietly wind up dead on one of their estates - just like the time a body showed up on one of the Queen's minor palaces and Scotland Yard rushed to pronounce Elizabeth free of any wrongdoing, nothing to see here, move along.

As far as getting arrested for hate speech in the UK, here you go. It happens more often than you think.

https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... 8&oe=UTF-8

As for Israel, whether or not it is illegal under the law to wear them is a moot point in my eyes. Wear one walking down the street in Tel Aviv and you'll as likely as not be dragged into an alley, beaten nearly to death - and the cops will look the other way - just as they did when Likud's fanatics went out during Protective Edge screaming "death to Arabs, death to leftists!" and beating people and Netanyahu put out a directive for police to look the other way.

And I am wrong quite often; I just don't think I'm wrong on this. Punks wearing swastikas in the UK doesn't mean it's not illegal; it just means they've gotten away with it or that nobody bothered to call the police. You can and will be fined, cited, or even arrested in many places in Europe for wearing one, Germany obviously foremost among them.

[Replay]

As for why I argue with you:

* You lied about me ten years ago during the incident where I tried to get people to stop using gay slurs, manipulating the situation to accuse me of "fag-bashing" and to get yourself appointed moderator of a board I founded - then refused to honor an apology I tried to give you when I got angry in response, instead paying to have me illegally surveilled.
* You later accused me of potential neo-Nazi sympathies I've never had in response to my criticisms of Likud and the Israeli government - and turned out to be wrong about that - here you are sticking right up for the right to wear swastikas around in public, though.
* You told me you'd happily go in front of a courtroom and try to get me committed for insanity if I made any trouble over the intellectual property piracy you've permitted here over the years, and still engage in yourself despite the wealth you claim.
* You eagerly and freely use this site that I founded to advocate for your very ethically gray real estate deals selling "renoviction" properties despite my protestations that I don't want this site used in any way to hurt people.
* You implied I had nothing to do with this site's success and that it didn't matter that I founded the place, during one of our many arguments.
* You also insulted my family and my grandfather, implying that he was a "minor government official" and didn't matter, during that same argument - which goes to show how little you actually do understand about the United States.
* Finally, you "joked" about having me killed, and everyone here killed.

And because of that I wonder whether or not you *have* had people killed in the past; which would raise you above the level of dangerous nuisance to the level of highly dangerous white-collar criminal, if true.

In short you have acted like a gangster and an asshole a lot here, "Kal".

So if you wonder why I jump at the chance to break the hypnotic power your ethically ambigious wealth and too-cool-for-school asshole tendencies have here over a lot of people who "don't know you from Adam", wonder no longer.

Your behavior here routinely turns a website I made and created with hard work and dedication into something I never wanted it to be.

[Eric]

[Oracle]

Yup, time for a vacation from Daily Stuph again.

[Don]

Symbols aren't illegal in most countries. I do have a problem with guys who like to do stuff with symbol just because it's not illegal. I remember having a US History teacher who was an American Indian always talking about burning flags and desecrating them, and I know that's totally legal, but it's not like he's doing (or rather, just talking about) this because he's got some grievances to the USA. It's literally because it's legal.

[kali o.]

TL:DR

Hopefully you said something like "Sorry Kali. You are right. And sorry to everyone else for snapping - I am having a bad year".

[Replay]

I am lazy, disinterested, as ethically mucktrodden as ever, and as always, clam up when confronted about my own past bad behaviors. There's no win in it for me.

Enjoy.

[kali o.]

America does need to hate again. Counter culture to the PC, black lives matter, feminazi, cis hating, LBGTNBI, everyone is a special snowflake movement. Extremism always spawns a counterbalance.

Its definitely part of the reason Trump is popular. A guy wearing a swastika cap...meh...people forget history...people redefine symbols...no biggie. I think its a stretch to pretend Trump is the next hitler -- but its on the nose for leftist hyperbole, so why not?

You really need to watch South Park Season 19, I'm sure you'd love it.

Interesting take, but I think he's thinking a little too deep on one aspect:
PC culture is not an inherent part of Neo Liberalism, which at the beginning of the video he seems to acknowledge. In the later portions he seems to link PC culture as being a necessary conclusion of neoliberalism, which isn't the case in reality or in the show. In the season of South Park , PC culture (represented by PC Principal) was hijacked and exploited for the purposes of the neoliberal agenda. At the end, PC Principal is the one who violently rebels.

Also, the guy occasionally conflates the two opposing terms of liberalism and neoliberalism. Yes, they both have the word "liberal" in them, but one is a philosophy of liberty and equality, whereas the other is a emphasizes economic liberty - or laissez-faire economics. In our contemporary understanding of the political spectrum, neoliberalism exists firmly on the side of right-wing politics, whereas liberalism exists firmly in the left-wing. It's kind of like how certain people accidentally conflate socialism and national socialism; VASTLY different philosophies that were in militant opposition to one and other.

By the way, season 20 of South Park should be their best ever. The American election falls around the middle of it. Considering the candidates are Trump and Hillary, there should be lots of room for comedy.

I didn't rewatch the youtube video, so I may be rehashing its points here, but I came to the realization that the reason BLM, Occupy, Feminazi, LBGTQEtc, Pc, Special Snowflake movement has so much culture traction is due solely to the media. There have been a few news items recently where I have seen the narrative purposefully distorted or outright lied about, and then repeated in the most click baiting manner possible. Now, I get this isnt "new" but I think the level of dishonesty is new. Packaging news in maximum shock and outrage for maximum profit.

And notice I said "click"(who watches TV anymore?). Thats part of the issue too. We have these new media outlets that editorialize everything based on their very specific demographics. A sea full of Montel Williams and very few Dan Rathers. They do not hold themselves to the journalistic standards of TV.

Perhaps thats what Matt & Trey mean with the Ad angle. Dunno, just a thought.

[Replay]

I didn't rewatch the youtube video, so I may be rehashing its points here, but I came to the realization that the reason BLM, Occupy, Feminazi, LBGTQEtc, Pc, Special Snowflake movement has so much culture traction is due solely to the media.

Try again; the media ignored Occupy for *two entire weeks* before covering it at all. There were hundreds or even thousands of people outside Wall Street going completely unrecognized before it finally grew into something they couldn't ignore. Now, once something is a movement the media will absolutely perpetuate it in the name of clickbait, et cetera...but you have still misidentified the movements seeking justice against abuse as "special snowflake"-types. BLM wants cops to stop shooting black people out of habit. The "Feminazis" - most of them, anyway - want guys like Cosby to stop raping the shit out of women. The LGBTQ movement wants guys like Matt Shepard's killers to stop murdering gay people.

You do not understand the desire for social justice because you are a sociopath, Kal - and I say that with all the kindness and respect I can. You are an abuser. You are not going to understand these movements until you finally get over your own tendencies to abuse the world for profit, and that will not happen until *you* understand that other lives matter besides your own.

[Replay]

Or, to put it another way...these movements gain cultural traction because we have a sick and abusive culture that still perpetuates systematic injustices against women, minorities, gay people, financial whistleblowers, and many others.

When injustices are perpetuated, those who have been wronged will always tend to unite in the name of stopping the abuse.

[kali o.]

Citation needed, my little snowflake. You are reaching back into the last century for 2 of your examples -- no one celebrates Bill Cosbys actions (if true) or Shepards killers (which is a robbery with "hate" as a motivation widely disputed). Cops kill more whites and crime is an issue in black communities.

[Replay]

Citation needed, my little snowflake. You are reaching back into the last century for 2 of your examples -- no one celebrates Bill Cosbys actions (if true) or Shepards killers (which is a robbery with "hate" as a motivation widely disputed). Cops kill more whites and crime is an issue in black communities.

Not surprising to see you among the apologists for Shepard's killers. But tell us all about your perspective on that hideous crime, by all means.

It wouldn't bother me so much if you hadn't falsely accused me of "fag-bashing" here nearly a decade ago in an incident we both remember was actually about my attempt to get the board to stop using homophobic language - then used the resulting fallout from my anger to have me surveilled, and my bank account looked into, and my Fourth Amendment rights violated across the board.

But of course, you still won't discuss that one to this day - because any discussion of the issue would expose your manipulative and dishonest tendencies.

No "win" for you there, right?

World's still easy to manipulate, isn't it, Kali?

Still think you can have me killed, by the way? Or that you can have us all killed?

[Replay]

*shrug*

The world is full of hate. That's why this shit keeps happening. You, of course, by your own admission, think the world needs more hate - not less. Anything else is "P.C., special-snowflake" happy-fuzzies to you; or have I misread your position again?

Who are you, Kal? Who shat in your Cheerios and made you into this bitter, manipulative hedge-funder/realtor who has millions in the bank but still steals the software he uses to this day and thinks that our troubled world needs to be even nastier than it is?

[kali o.]

The world is great, and will be greater with Trump (who really needs to spend the next month being more presidential, then go back to the craziness).

[Replay]

Right now, unless he changes something substantial, he's not going to win.

You and he share a basic character flaw - the failure to realize that being a habitual asshole actually does affect the world around you.

[kali o.]

Right now, unless he changes something substantial, he's not going to win.

You and he share a basic character flaw - the failure to realize that being a habitual asshole actually does affect the world around you.

Call us habitual assholes all you want - not much of a flaw to overcome when we are both incredibly wealthy and control large empires.

Have fun tossing stones from your lonely low income apartment though...lol.

[Replay]

No one gives a fuck except you. You get rich evicting poor people. You STILL brag about stealing software even though you're wealthy now - shades of Kanye West getting caught pirating some of his music production software, there. You bragged about your sex junket to Thailand...I mean, I knew a guy once who took sex junkets to Thailand. That guy was despondent inside. Just saying.

Suffice it to say I don't want to be you, Kali. I can't imagine enjoying trampling over other people the way you do in the pursuit of wealth and power or exulting in putting people out on the street.

There's a hole in that soul somewhere, but it's not really to my benefit anymore to pursue psychoanalysis of it.

[kali o.]

No one gives a fuck except you. You get rich evicting poor people. You STILL brag about stealing software even though you're wealthy now - shades of Kanye West getting caught pirating some of his music production software, there. You bragged about your sex junket to Thailand...I mean, I knew a guy once who took sex junkets to Thailand. That guy was despondent inside. Just saying.

Suffice it to say I don't want to be you, Kali. I can't imagine enjoying trampling over other people the way you do in the pursuit of wealth and power or exulting in putting people out on the street.

There's a hole in that soul somewhere, but it's not really to my benefit anymore to pursue psychoanalysis of it.

You desparately want to be me or to be brought into my fold. In fact, I will send someone to you with an offer soon, just to prove you have a price on even the most deplorable of acts.

[Replay]

Oh, my Lord. This ought to be good.

I wait with bated breath.

[Replay]

By what venue should I expect this magical - and unwanted - communication?

I asked if you were having me surveilled again in violation of my Fourth Amendment rights.

I received a no for an answer, so the answer had better goddamned well not be "physically". Once was enough. There are limits.

[Replay]

*sigh*

Fine, Kal. If this is your oblique way of reminding me that I can be touched, consider the point made. Call off your dogs.

[kali o.]

Did you see the Leslie Jones nudes too? Dont blame me for that!