Xbox 360 "Core" - $299, Xbox 360 -$399

[Agent 57]

http://www.mediacenterpcworld.com/news/489


So Microsoft is protecting their bottom line at the expense of development ease, in addition to pissing off gamers who liked the idea of a built-in hard drive and never having to buy memory cards. Not to mention the fact that they've been touting stuff like wireless controllers and HD support for a while now, neither of which is available out of the box in the core version.

I dunno, but as far as I'm concerned this has "disaster" written all over it.

[Lox]

Yeah, I read about that yesterday. Basically, for $300, you're getting less than you did with the original Xbox. I don't really consider the processing power improvements as part of that since it's just the natural progression of technology improvements.

It kind of annoys me that Microsoft is pulling that when they've been shouting about all of these awesome extras of the 360 and now they're for the upgraded system only. What a bunch of crap.

I hope Sony sticks it to them and offers all of the fancy features at the $300 price tag.

[Eric]

Xbox 360 Core System - $299 (299 Euros, 209 GBP)
•Xbox 360 console
•Wired controller
•Detachable faceplate
•Xbox Live Silver membership
•Standard AV cables

Xbox 360 - $399 (399 Euros, 279 GBP)
•Xbox 360 console
•20GB detachable hard drive
•Wireless controller
•Wireless Xbox Live headset
•High-definition AV cables
•Ethernet cable
•Xbox 360 Media Remote Control (limited time)
•Detachable faceplate
•Xbox Live Silver membership

DIfferences:
•20GB detachable hard drive
•Wireless controller
•Wireless Xbox Live headset
•High-definition AV
•Ethernet cable
•Xbox 360 Media Remote Control (limited time)

Do you NEED any of the stuff from the $100 difference? No, so I don't see why it's a big deal, get a memory card and play normally I mean really. Oh NOES! I don't have my wireless controller!!!! *Rolls Eyes*

[Flip]

Oh NOES! I don't have my wireless controller!!!! *Rolls Eyes*

Lol, yeah, i always though some things people take too far. I still use a wired mouse and would still use a wired controller. When you are 6 feet away from things, why make it wireless?

[Agent 57]

Differences:
•20GB detachable hard drive
•Wireless controller
•Wireless Xbox Live headset
•High-definition AV
•Ethernet cable
•Xbox 360 Media Remote Control (limited time)

Do you NEED any of the stuff from the $100 difference? No, so I don't see why it's a big deal.

1) The hard drive - the lack of a *standard* (that's the important word there) hard drive is going to cause several problems. It's required for backwards compatibility and will be required for some games, meaning that the games that require the hard drive will probably sell fewer copies, and that some games that could have used the hard drive for nifty features won't bother - meaning developers make less money and gamers get worse games. Everybody loses.

2) Wireless controller - contrary to Eric's sarcasm and Flip's, well, being flippant, there is a legitimate reason why somebody (specifically, someone like me) would want a wireless controller.

As you guys might recall, I bought a big screen TV last year, and in my owner's manual it says "the best picture is seen by sitting directly in front of the TV and 10 to 18 feet from the screen." Thus, all of my controller cables are too short and I've had to buy extension cables for every controller I want to use (two for my one GC controller since the cables are so short!). So not only have I had to buy all those extra cables, I have to roll up 15 feet of cable every time I put a controller away and untangle 15 feet of cable every time I pull one out. A *standard*, first-party wireless controller would be about 100 times more convenient for me (and everyone else with a big TV).

3) High-definition AV - One of the most trumpeted features of the 360 is that every game will be required to be in high-def, and yet they're <i>still</i> charging extra for the fscking cables? That's bullshit.


Look, my point here is that I was on the fence about possibly being an early adopter (albeit asking my family for it as an Xmas present) and the price points/feature sets they released just pushed me most of the way off the fence. Not to mention the non-standard equipment, which is bound to create issues with developers down the road, and does not bode well for the success of the system.

[Eric]

Agent, you're looking at it in reverse. The real system is the one with the $400 price tag, the $300 is for cheaper people who might want to upgrade later.

If you want all the features by the $400 one and stop complaining.

[Andrew, Killer Bee]

The problem is that it splits the market. Developers can no longer assume a hard disk, and so most games won't be built to take advantage of the hard disk.

And regarding wireless controllers - I find it insulting that in next gen systems wired controllers are being offered at all, just like I found the PS2's only having two controller ports (this still smarts, so many years later!) insulting. There's no good reason for them not to have wireless as a default.

[Agent 57]

The real system is the one with the $400 price tag.

And therein lies the problem - that's simply too expensive for a video game console. The Saturn bombed at that price - granted, it also had the most botched launch ever, but still. Sony undercut the Saturn by $100, Sega was immediately scrambling to make up the difference, and ultimately they never recovered.

This just opens the door for Sony to undercut the 360 by $100 and stick with their $300 launch point like they did for the PS2. Even with a six-month or whatever head start, unless the 360 gets an established user base down it's going to get steamrolled by the PS3, especially if the PS3 undercuts the 360 - and at $400, it's unlikely that 360 will be able to build that user base in time. Who cares if Halo 3 releases on the same day as the PS3 if the PS3 sells more units?

The analysts can praise MS all they want for protecting their bottom line and making money on hardware for once, but I think it'll screw the 360 over in the long run.

I just think it's a dumb move, that's all.

[Zeus]

Do you NEED any of the stuff from the $100 difference? No, so I don't see why it's a big deal, get a memory card and play normally I mean really. Oh NOES! I don't have my wireless controller!!!! *Rolls Eyes*

Um, yes. For that price, I'd much rather pay the extra for the extra stuff. It's the fact that it doesn't come basic that makes it bad.

And the Saturn bombed only in America. It did quite well in Japan.

[Kupek]

<a href=http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?optio ... =2>This</a> is an interesting read that gets reactions from people in the videogame industry, journalists and business analysts.

[Eric]

Do you NEED any of the stuff from the $100 difference? No, so I don't see why it's a big deal, get a memory card and play normally I mean really. Oh NOES! I don't have my wireless controller!!!! *Rolls Eyes*

Um, yes. For that price, I'd much rather pay the extra for the extra stuff. It's the fact that it doesn't come basic that makes it bad.

And the Saturn bombed only in America. It did quite well in Japan.

Oh, I'm getting the $400 system. Hehe.

Where'd the Saturn comment come from btw? @_@

[Eric]

The real system is the one with the $400 price tag.

And therein lies the problem - that's simply too expensive for a video game console. The Saturn bombed at that price - granted, it also had the most botched launch ever, but still. Sony undercut the Saturn by $100, Sega was immediately scrambling to make up the difference, and ultimately they never recovered.

This just opens the door for Sony to undercut the 360 by $100 and stick with their $300 launch point like they did for the PS2. Even with a six-month or whatever head start, unless the 360 gets an established user base down it's going to get steamrolled by the PS3, especially if the PS3 undercuts the 360 - and at $400, it's unlikely that 360 will be able to build that user base in time. Who cares if Halo 3 releases on the same day as the PS3 if the PS3 sells more units?

The analysts can praise MS all they want for protecting their bottom line and making money on hardware for once, but I think it'll screw the 360 over in the long run.

I just think it's a dumb move, that's all.

I feel you, the problem is gonna come at whether or not the cheaper one outsells the more expensive one. I wouldn't be surprised if after a while they phased out those core X-box deals after they get a fan base.

Course Japan, will always be a horrible place for Microsoft to sell. They just don't buy stuff that's not made there.

[Lox]

<a href=http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?optio ... =2>This</a> is an interesting read that gets reactions from people in the videogame industry, journalists and business analysts.

Interesting. I skimmed most of it but what caught my eye the most was exactly what Agent57 was saying: developers will design games and lay out requirements under the assumption of no harddrive.

Now, to me, that's a huge problem right there because it basically throttles the initiative that some developers may have had to use the harddrive in unique and useful ways. It sounds to me like the harddrive will be a nice little bonus that will offer little in extra gaming value other than removing the need for a memory card and allowing you to rip mp3's. Maybe there will still be downloadable updates to games but maybe not if the assumption is no harddrive right now.

Maybe that will change if the majority of the systems sold are the $399 versions, but what if it's half and half? Developers are most likely going to cater to the lower end system and turn the harddrive into a novelty.

[kali o.]

I haven't read the articles yet (will in a sec), but i'll say a couple of quick things.

1) Actual dev use/support of the built-in hard-drive was actually pretty shitty and slim across the XBox game library (for which frankly, I think there is no fucking excuse. At least include custom sountracks). Instead, it ended up costing MS alot of money, helped make the system even bulkier and was responsible for a large # of the DDE/bug issues in games.

2) It was generally known/rumoured since what? Last year at least? That the next Xbox would come in two flavors. Its not really a surprise I think, and probably a smart move (even if I don't like it).

3) It is rumoured (or perhaps confirmed now, dunno, don't keep up anymore) that the Hard drive would recieve heavy package support. MS aims to have an MMO released at/near launch ala. the FXI-type of deal, bundled with a Live package and then follow up with more titles offering a package option that at least support its use.

4) Outside of saved games (+ Live user data), not a whole lot of users were making use of their hard drive (pirates aside). Frankly, the people that like to have custom soundtracks, endless saves, etc, will probably gladly pay the extra cost.

I'd much rather see a single design, I've never liked addons (rip sega). BUT, I understand the move and would rather see sensible support of the hard drive than the half-assed crap that happened this gen (which probably accounted for the majority of the rushed PC ports, dead Xboxs and bugs).

I dunno, so far I'm planning on getting the $399 X360 at launch...but who knows, maybe Sony will pull out something to change my mind (this issue doesn't).

PS - I do think $399 is too high and leaves the door open for Sony to undercut them. They better market the "core" system heavily and leave the "Deluxe" version as an offered "UPGRADE", not the reverse. Even doin that, if Sony offers all the 360 features at a $299 price tag, that spells big trouble for the Xbox....Sony can afford the early hardware hit anyway.

[Flip]

Yah, Sony loses money on the PSP's, but they dont care and i think it helped the system. If it was $400 then you can bet noone would have bought it.

I love Sony, i buy all my stuff sony, never had a problem with broken anything for anything. Plus, they are so stylish, i even have a cool looking Sony credit card and used some point a few months ago for a touch screen universal controller.

They wont fail me and will kick the shit our of the xbox360.

[the Gray]

This quote from CS Weaver of Bethesda really stuck out for me.

"That is a recipe for more bad word of mouth than any 'under $300' price will ever achieve in the hearts and minds of your customers. It takes fourteen positive impressions to register “awareness” with a consumer. It takes but one negative impression to wipe it out. I figure with your initial leap of faith added to this latest stupid pet trick, you’re just about even…

How true. HD TV's are now far more common, remote & wireless + hard drive for $100 more? It's a no brainer. Selling a $299 'Core' system is stupid. I expect them to sit on shelves after the initial launch.

I think Penny Arcade's commentary is funny, and spot on.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php

[SineSwiper]

Every new system should be improved in every way. Really, I could give a shit about the specs of each system. I'm talking about the improvements that matter, like 4-way play, modem/ethernet, wireless controllers, wireless internet connection, etc., etc.

The best example of this was the Dreamcast. The DC had 4-ports for 4 players -AND- a modem (which was interchangable with an ethernet adaptor) -AND- a web browser -AND- an improved controller (though I thought the Saturn d-pad was better). For $50, you could buy a system that could play games and browse the web.

On the other hand, XBox had 4 ports, a fucking useless ethernet port, a deformed controller for giants, and a HD. The PS2 had only 2 ports, no internet ability, no HD, no controller improvements, and frankly was only an improvement to the PS1 in terms of graphics. (I guess they thought that the backward-compatibility would hold the system.) The Gamecube had the 4 ports and a MUCH improved controller, but like the Dreamcast, it didn't have the HD or could play DVDs.

Now that we are entering the next generation of consoles, I'd expect these consoles to AT LEAST have (by default):

DVD playback
HDTV compatibility
Backwards compatibility with the previous system
A hard drive
4 ports for controllers
Wireless 802.1B/G internet and ethernet capability (modem is optional at this point)
A web browser (COME ON, MICROSOFT! YOU MAKE A FUCKING WEB BROWSER!!!)
Capability for wireless controllers (the controllers themselves are optional)
A better controller than the previous one
A good plus: PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports, and USB ports that would support any keyboard/mouse automatically

It's actually not asking for much, just the required stuff for today's enivoriment. If they can't even match the previous generations' stuff (from their own console or their competitors'), it's nothing but a dead weight that isn't even bothering to innovate itself. It's about as stupid as the computer industry not adopting SCSI as standard, or Nintendo taking fucking EONS with the Gameboy to 1. get a color system, 2. get a system with a fucking backlit display, and 3. get a system with enough fucking controls.

With three corporations competing in this mess, I would expect nothing less. Even if you had to lose money on selling the system, it would definately be worth it, and developers would flock like seagulls. "Gee, I have a system that can get on the Internet by default (and very easily), can use a keyboard/mouse, has a HD for add-ons and patches, is capable of 4-player games, with crisp HDTV graphics, and I could still develop for the previous generation on the tail end of its life? That would be a no-brainer!"

[SineSwiper]

Oh, BTW, wireless controllers are either cheap pieces of shit that have some annoying 1/2 second delay, or expensive.

[Nev]

Knowing what I do about development, and being a developer now, I think the fact that developers can't assume a hard drive may be the biggest issue, at least for me. You can do lots of things with goodly amounts of persistent storage that you can't do with memory cards. Well, you can do some of them, but development time, and thus cost, goes way up.

[Flip]

Every new system should be improved in every way. Really, I could give a shit about the specs of each system. I'm talking about the improvements that matter, like 4-way play, modem/ethernet, wireless controllers, wireless internet connection, etc., etc.

The best example of this was the Dreamcast. The DC had 4-ports for 4 players -AND- a modem (which was interchangable with an ethernet adaptor) -AND- a web browser -AND- an improved controller (though I thought the Saturn d-pad was better). For $50, you could buy a system that could play games and browse the web.

On the other hand, XBox had 4 ports, a fucking useless ethernet port, a deformed controller for giants, and a HD. The PS2 had only 2 ports, no internet ability, no HD, no controller improvements, and frankly was only an improvement to the PS1 in terms of graphics. (I guess they thought that the backward-compatibility would hold the system.) The Gamecube had the 4 ports and a MUCH improved controller, but like the Dreamcast, it didn't have the HD or could play DVDs.

Now that we are entering the next generation of consoles, I'd expect these consoles to AT LEAST have (by default):

DVD playback
HDTV compatibility
Backwards compatibility with the previous system
A hard drive
4 ports for controllers
Wireless 802.1B/G internet and ethernet capability (modem is optional at this point)
A web browser (COME ON, MICROSOFT! YOU MAKE A FUCKING WEB BROWSER!!!)
Capability for wireless controllers (the controllers themselves are optional)
A better controller than the previous one
A good plus: PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports, and USB ports that would support any keyboard/mouse automatically

It's actually not asking for much, just the required stuff for today's enivoriment. If they can't even match the previous generations' stuff (from their own console or their competitors'), it's nothing but a dead weight that isn't even bothering to innovate itself. It's about as stupid as the computer industry not adopting SCSI as standard, or Nintendo taking fucking EONS with the Gameboy to 1. get a color system, 2. get a system with a fucking backlit display, and 3. get a system with enough fucking controls.

With three corporations competing in this mess, I would expect nothing less. Even if you had to lose money on selling the system, it would definately be worth it, and developers would flock like seagulls. "Gee, I have a system that can get on the Internet by default (and very easily), can use a keyboard/mouse, has a HD for add-ons and patches, is capable of 4-player games, with crisp HDTV graphics, and I could still develop for the previous generation on the tail end of its life? That would be a no-brainer!"

Thats about as nail on the head as you can get. Nice job.

[Zeus]

Every new system should be improved in every way. Really, I could give a shit about the specs of each system. I'm talking about the improvements that matter, like 4-way play, modem/ethernet, wireless controllers, wireless internet connection, etc., etc.

The best example of this was the Dreamcast. The DC had 4-ports for 4 players -AND- a modem (which was interchangable with an ethernet adaptor) -AND- a web browser -AND- an improved controller (though I thought the Saturn d-pad was better). For $50, you could buy a system that could play games and browse the web.

On the other hand, XBox had 4 ports, a fucking useless ethernet port, a deformed controller for giants, and a HD. The PS2 had only 2 ports, no internet ability, no HD, no controller improvements, and frankly was only an improvement to the PS1 in terms of graphics. (I guess they thought that the backward-compatibility would hold the system.) The Gamecube had the 4 ports and a MUCH improved controller, but like the Dreamcast, it didn't have the HD or could play DVDs.

Now that we are entering the next generation of consoles, I'd expect these consoles to AT LEAST have (by default):

DVD playback
HDTV compatibility
Backwards compatibility with the previous system
A hard drive
4 ports for controllers
Wireless 802.1B/G internet and ethernet capability (modem is optional at this point)
A web browser (COME ON, MICROSOFT! YOU MAKE A FUCKING WEB BROWSER!!!)
Capability for wireless controllers (the controllers themselves are optional)
A better controller than the previous one
A good plus: PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports, and USB ports that would support any keyboard/mouse automatically

Amazingly, none of the systems will actually have all of these.

[SineSwiper]

Amazingly, none of the systems will actually have all of these.

And it's incredibly stupid. Don't tell me that it would cost too much. Pffffft!

DVD playback - Damn near free, considering that the system is likely going to use a DVD drive anyway. All you need is a small software handler to deal with the actual DVD playback, and that's not hard to do.

HDTV compatibility - I'm not sure what the cost of this is, but it would be suicide otherwise. HDTV is starting to take over, and by the time these systems become mature, at least half of the customers will be using HDTVs.

Backwards compatibility with the previous system - All in all, it depends on how drastic the changes between systems are, but there is virtually no per-unit cost to do this, and this will MAKE MONEY in the long run. It adds tons of points in the eyes of both customers, who can play games on two platforms (for the price of one), and developers, who can make the transistion easier. Even if you have something like a completely different medium, an cheap add-on like the GBA player for the GC would be a good idea. (Though, it's better just to make it work with the system.)

A hard drive - HDs are extremely cheap, especially the 20GB HDs that they are looking for, and especially if they buy in bulk. I wouldn't be surprised if they get $2 a HD for these things. 20GB in storage is soooooo yesterday.

4 ports for controllers - If it's on 3 out of 4 of the last generation's consoles, put the fucking thing in! And no, this doesn't cost much either.

Wireless 802.1B/G internet and ethernet capability (modem is optional at this point) - The ethernet port is extremely cheap. The wireless may be less so, but it's such a big boost to the system, especially when everybody is buying wireless routers for their broadband, that any cost would be worth it. Nobody wants to drag a 50-foot cable to their router because the stupid system can't support 802.1.

A web browser - Free. Port Mozilla code to the operating system. Depending on how similar the hardware/OS is, it would take a full-time programmer anywhere from a week to two months to get the underlying code in working order.

Capability for wireless controllers - Since the controllers are optional, you're talking about a piece of hardware to communicate with the controllers. For bonus points, take advantage of the 802.1 hardware and use it instead for a freebie.

A better controller than the previous one - Duh!

PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports, and USB ports that would support any keyboard/mouse automatically - Not hard. You could even just use USB ports, and toss in a couple of USB-to-PS/2 adaptors. The key thing is that you don't need to buy a brand-name keyboard that will only work with that one console. That's just stupid.

[Zeus]

Amazingly, none of the systems will actually have all of these.

And it's incredibly stupid. Don't tell me that it would cost too much. Pffffft!

Well, in some cases, it actually would, including:

DVD playback - Damn near free, considering that the system is likely going to use a DVD drive anyway. All you need is a small software handler to deal with the actual DVD playback, and that's not hard to do.

Yes, but you forgot about the DVD Forum, which requires something in the neighbourhood of $20 US in a royalty fee for any DVD player made. So, even though it's about 12 cents to put a player in the system, it's an additional $20 licencing fee cost to the manufacturer. Why do you think Microshaft only offered it through a separate controller? To skirt the fee on each system made and only pay for it with each controller sold. That's why the damned controller was so expensive.

HDTV compatibility - I'm not sure what the cost of this is, but it would be suicide otherwise. HDTV is starting to take over, and by the time these systems become mature, at least half of the customers will be using HDTVs.

Well, taking over is a relative term. HDTV is starting to hit it big with more than just the hardcores but hasn't even come close to hitting mass market yet. Same sort of thing happened with DVD players. They started to hit it big back in about 2000 but it wasn't until they dropped to VCR prices in about 2002 or 2003 that they really took over. And until we see a reasonable DVD recorder out there (in a DVD player) to replace VCR, the old system will still stick around, kinda like tape did 'til the CD writers took over.

This one is a development cost thing, I think. Not really sure, but it COULD be more expensive to develop HD games and since it might only be relevant for the latter half of the next cycle, it might not be as prominent as we think. And it might cost more to put HD compatibility into the system, which would be the reasonaing behind Nintendo not putting it in. The programmers here can verify or falsify this argument.

Backwards compatibility with the previous system - All in all, it depends on how drastic the changes between systems are, but there is virtually no per-unit cost to do this, and this will MAKE MONEY in the long run. It adds tons of points in the eyes of both customers, who can play games on two platforms (for the price of one), and developers, who can make the transistion easier. Even if you have something like a completely different medium, an cheap add-on like the GBA player for the GC would be a good idea. (Though, it's better just to make it work with the system.)

For Nintendo and Sony, this is easy, they own their own archetecture. Microshaft, on the other hand, does not. They literally used off the shelf parts with very little customization for their Xboxes. They're attempting to emulate the Xbox with the 360, but it's likely not going to be very good. But I agree, I think this is going to be a standard from now on. You may even see the PS3 play PSP games, which would really move that system's software.

A hard drive - HDs are extremely cheap, especially the 20GB HDs that they are looking for, and especially if they buy in bulk. I wouldn't be surprised if they get $2 a HD for these things. 20GB in storage is soooooo yesterday.

HD are really unnecessary IMO. With flash memory dropping in price so drastically, I think you'll eventually see HDs just disappear for anything but storage on PCs. Flash memory is more easily interchangable and with MUCH faster access time (as you well know), so it's much better suited for gaming than a HD is. And HDs are more expensive to manufacture than flash memory. I honestly think the next generation is the last generation where we see HDs as an accessory.

Besides, who the hell used more than 512MB (the flash memory that comes with the Revolution) of memory on their Xbox? Maybe for a couple of games that used it, but with the increase in access speed of optical drives, that's also becoming more and more unnecessary.

4 ports for controllers - If it's on 3 out of 4 of the last generation's consoles, put the fucking thing in! And no, this doesn't cost much either.

Wireless 802.1B/G internet and ethernet capability (modem is optional at this point) - The ethernet port is extremely cheap. The wireless may be less so, but it's such a big boost to the system, especially when everybody is buying wireless routers for their broadband, that any cost would be worth it. Nobody wants to drag a 50-foot cable to their router because the stupid system can't support 802.1.

These ones I agree with and it looks like all of them will support it, other than the core Xbox 360 system

A web browser - Free. Port Mozilla code to the operating system. Depending on how similar the hardware/OS is, it would take a full-time programmer anywhere from a week to two months to get the underlying code in working order.

This one isn't a cost issue, but rather a system use issue. Why do you need a web browser? These systems aren't really a replacement for your PC and for what you need your system for, a web browser may not be the best solution. If you're just downloading updates or levels or talking to other games, why the hell would you need a web browser? If you're playing online you sure won't need one. Microshaft got it right and just gave you what you need without the need to browse. There was a simple menu with simple options that gave you what you needed.

Capability for wireless controllers - Since the controllers are optional, you're talking about a piece of hardware to communicate with the controllers. For bonus points, take advantage of the 802.1 hardware and use it instead for a freebie.

I agree, but this one can also easily come with the controller itself ala the Wavebird. But as the technology gets better and better (and cheaper), we'll see it become more standard.

A better controller than the previous one - Duh!

This must be the anti-Sony requirement. They literally have done nothing to improve their controller, sticking to what works (adding buttons and useless pressure sensitivity doesn't cut it). And most think that batarang like controller for the PS3 is dumb. Microshaft hasn't really changed the 360 controller much from the Controller S either. And no one knows what Nintendo is going to do, but we know it's going to be different, but not necessarily better. This jury's still out on this requirement

PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports, and USB ports that would support any keyboard/mouse automatically - Not hard. You could even just use USB ports, and toss in a couple of USB-to-PS/2 adaptors. The key thing is that you don't need to buy a brand-name keyboard that will only work with that one console. That's just stupid.

[/quote]

Well, three things against this "requirement". One, why the hell would you need a keyboard and/or mouse to begin with? These aren't replacements for PCs and Microshaft has already proven that you can make a much better (ie. efficient and simpler) interface than that of a standard browser-like interface on a PC. Two, these hardware manufacturers are in it to make money, so their will only want their own proprietary hardware to be able to interface with their hardware. And three, it's all about pure control, baby. You're only allowed to play the games the way they want you to play them with their proprietary hardware. Allow too much customizability and they can be proven wrong (ie. Halo would be MUCH better to play on the Xbox with a mouse and keyboard than the Controller S). You can't have that otherwise it cannibalizes the sales of the proprietary hardware AND lessens the appeal of the system, especially if you have PC ports of these games.

Really, none of these are actual "requirements" other than wireless and 4 controller ports, that's why you're not seeing them standard with the new systems other than the aforementioned requirements. I believe even Sony has realized that 4 controller ports are required now.

[Julius Seeker]

I wouldn't mind having all that stuff, but some I would have no use for; no need for web browsing, DVD playing, or anything like that, I don't mind the feature, but it is useless. 4 controllers is something that all consoles should have had since the SNES days when they knew that more controllers than 2 were required.

[SineSwiper]

Yes, but you forgot about the DVD Forum, which requires something in the neighbourhood of $20 US in a royalty fee for any DVD player made. So, even though it's about 12 cents to put a player in the system, it's an additional $20 licencing fee cost to the manufacturer. Why do you think Microshaft only offered it through a separate controller? To skirt the fee on each system made and only pay for it with each controller sold. That's why the damned controller was so expensive.

That sounds like a contract negotiation problem. Everybody I know uses their Xbox or PS2 as a DVD player. If you have the console, there's no need to get a DVD player. This is really starting to be a definate requirement, so either they eat the costs, or do stupid money tricks like Microsoft does. (Hey, $20 is better than $60-80 for a new DVD player. I still wished that the XBox supported controller capability with the DVD player.)

BTW, royality fees are 4% of the unit cost. At $300, this would be $12, which isn't all that bad. I'm sure some further negotiation can be made, such as saying that all of the $300 isn't towards the DVD player part. They can always threaten to pull the same trick that XBox did, and sell a $5-10 controller to cover the lower $4 royality fee.

Besides, who the hell used more than 512MB (the flash memory that comes with the Revolution) of memory on their Xbox? Maybe for a couple of games that used it, but with the increase in access speed of optical drives, that's also becoming more and more unnecessary.

There was one thing I really noticed when switching from the PSX to the PS2. The PSX has a 128KB or so memory card, and on average, games take up about 8K or so of space. On the PS2, I have a 8MB memory card, and on average, games are using up about 150-200KB of space for save games. Some games, like San Andreas, use up as much as 800K of space on the card. So, how do games with about the same mechanics, same speed for loading/saving, same length of playing time, get to have save games with as much as 100 times the space?

Trust me...they will find a way to use 512MB of flash very quickly.

Why do you need a web browser? These systems aren't really a replacement for your PC and for what you need your system for, a web browser may not be the best solution. If you're just downloading updates or levels or talking to other games, why the hell would you need a web browser?

Not everybody has a computer. It would be an easy device for people without computers to experience the Internet for the first time by plugging up with the console, instead of buying a $500-900 PC package. There's a lot of untapped potential to market consoles as Internet devices for people to use. Like a WebTV deal that actually works.

This must be the anti-Sony requirement. They literally have done nothing to improve their controller, sticking to what works (adding buttons and useless pressure sensitivity doesn't cut it). And most think that batarang like controller for the PS3 is dumb. Microshaft hasn't really changed the 360 controller much from the Controller S either. And no one knows what Nintendo is going to do, but we know it's going to be different, but not necessarily better. This jury's still out on this requirement

I'm surprised that Sony/MS isn't borrowing some ideas from Nintendo, like the click-in trigger buttons. Going from the shitty design of the N64 to their current GC design was probably the biggest turn-around of controller design that I'd ever seen.

[Kupek]

That sounds like a contract negotiation problem. Everybody I know uses their Xbox or PS2 as a DVD player. If you have the console, there's no need to get a DVD player.

There's no <i>need</i>, but there certainly is a good reason to get a DVD player: the PS2 DVD playback sucks. I used it for a long time, and the sound is crap. I had difficulty hearing people talk even when I turned the sound up high. So I ended up getting a real DVD player.

So, how do games with about the same mechanics, same speed for loading/saving, same length of playing time, get to have save games with as much as 100 times the space?

Easy, they're saving a lot more information than before. There's many ways you can interact with the game world in San Andreas.

[Zeus]

Yes, but you forgot about the DVD Forum, which requires something in the neighbourhood of $20 US in a royalty fee for any DVD player made. So, even though it's about 12 cents to put a player in the system, it's an additional $20 licencing fee cost to the manufacturer. Why do you think Microshaft only offered it through a separate controller? To skirt the fee on each system made and only pay for it with each controller sold. That's why the damned controller was so expensive.

That sounds like a contract negotiation problem. Everybody I know uses their Xbox or PS2 as a DVD player. If you have the console, there's no need to get a DVD player. This is really starting to be a definate requirement, so either they eat the costs, or do stupid money tricks like Microsoft does. (Hey, $20 is better than $60-80 for a new DVD player. I still wished that the XBox supported controller capability with the DVD player.)

BTW, royality fees are 4% of the unit cost. At $300, this would be $12, which isn't all that bad. I'm sure some further negotiation can be made, such as saying that all of the $300 isn't towards the DVD player part. They can always threaten to pull the same trick that XBox did, and sell a $5-10 controller to cover the lower $4 royality fee.

Besides, who the hell used more than 512MB (the flash memory that comes with the Revolution) of memory on their Xbox? Maybe for a couple of games that used it, but with the increase in access speed of optical drives, that's also becoming more and more unnecessary.

There was one thing I really noticed when switching from the PSX to the PS2. The PSX has a 128KB or so memory card, and on average, games take up about 8K or so of space. On the PS2, I have a 8MB memory card, and on average, games are using up about 150-200KB of space for save games. Some games, like San Andreas, use up as much as 800K of space on the card. So, how do games with about the same mechanics, same speed for loading/saving, same length of playing time, get to have save games with as much as 100 times the space?

Trust me...they will find a way to use 512MB of flash very quickly.

Why do you need a web browser? These systems aren't really a replacement for your PC and for what you need your system for, a web browser may not be the best solution. If you're just downloading updates or levels or talking to other games, why the hell would you need a web browser?

Not everybody has a computer. It would be an easy device for people without computers to experience the Internet for the first time by plugging up with the console, instead of buying a $500-900 PC package. There's a lot of untapped potential to market consoles as Internet devices for people to use. Like a WebTV deal that actually works.

This must be the anti-Sony requirement. They literally have done nothing to improve their controller, sticking to what works (adding buttons and useless pressure sensitivity doesn't cut it). And most think that batarang like controller for the PS3 is dumb. Microshaft hasn't really changed the 360 controller much from the Controller S either. And no one knows what Nintendo is going to do, but we know it's going to be different, but not necessarily better. This jury's still out on this requirement

I'm surprised that Sony/MS isn't borrowing some ideas from Nintendo, like the click-in trigger buttons. Going from the shitty design of the N64 to their current GC design was probably the biggest turn-around of controller design that I'd ever seen.

Well, here's a quick response:

Even at $12, it's too much of a cost when the vast majority of poeple already have a DVD player and don't need it. It's to the point now where it's an extra, useless cost, so it's gone. And Nintendo is pulling the Microshaft thing with their DVD playback.

It's true that more games now require much more room, but those games that'll require more than 1MB are few and far between, even for large save files like San Andreas, where you're saving a ton of data. That's still 512 saved games. And that's not including the downloadable games Nintendo is offering. For 99.99% of the people, that'll be more than enough.

Again, these systems are not trying to be a replacement for computers and the vast majority of consumers, as of right now, don't want them to be. REally, the set-top box is not something most people are accepting....yet. Give it a geneartion or two when everyone has an HD TV and they can make the image on your TV equal that on a computer monitor. Then you'll convert some poeple. But PCs and TVs have completely different functionality for most people and I don't think too many people want to marry the idea. Look how WebTV turned out....

The only part of the N64 controller that was poor in design was the third arm that no one used. Otherwise, it was a great controller. And it still has the best stick of any controller to date. It also invented the analog stick. Yes, it is Nintendo's worst design, but it's still very good.

[Tortolia]

Given you can get a perfectly functional DVD player that's actually DESIGNED as a DVD player first for $50 or so now (maybe even less), optional DVD playback is not a draw for me whatsoever.

[Agent 57]

Given you can get a perfectly functional DVD player that's actually DESIGNED as a DVD player first for $50 or so now (maybe even less), optional DVD playback is not a draw for me whatsoever.

And that's *progressive scan* DVD players that are that cheap now, even. Neither the PS2 or Xbox have support for progressive scan DVD playback.

The 360 and PS3 should at least be able to do DVDs in 480p, but who's going to care about that when that's about the same time that HD DVDs will hit the market?

Speaking of, boy is THAT going to be a quagmire or what? I saw an article today that said talks between Toshiba and Sony basically broke down completely, meaning there will be two high-def DVD standards out there (for a while, anyway, before one of them fails miserably and screws over everybody who guessed wrong). Not to mention that all the publishers who decide to support two formats are going to effectively double their manufacturing costs, meaning that either they're going to have to not make as much money on DVDs or (gulp) only support one format. No matter what, it's going to be a big mess and I doubt anybody will be happy with it.

[Zeus]

Given you can get a perfectly functional DVD player that's actually DESIGNED as a DVD player first for $50 or so now (maybe even less), optional DVD playback is not a draw for me whatsoever.

My arugment exactly